“True to your word of an Oct 31 start – signs of a good man.”
The above words are from commenter and blogger in her own right Aoefe, one of the founders of Girl Game, who I’ve mentioned recently. They come from my inaugural post here at The Obsidian Files “Origins”, where I give a bit of background about myself. I ain’t even gonna front-it made me feel good to see her say that about me-that I was a “Good Man”.
And, in that way that can only be described as Synchronicty-the occurance of meaningful coincidences-her words comes at a time when I’ve been deeply contemplating the arc of my own life, along with that of the lie of our nation, our society.
About a week ago, I got the chance to hear an “update” about one of my ex-girlfriends. Mind you, this was someone I’d dealt with off and on, longer than some people were married. I had been seriously considering her for marriage, but it wasn’t to be. As it turns out, it was the best choice.
This ex-girlfriend of mine had really hit bottom-her daughter taken away as the result of her being sexually abused at the hands of my ex’s live-boyfriend *and his son*. Her mom now is the caretaker of her daughter, and my ex now has to have supervised visits. The account sent shivers up my spine. I hadn’t seen or heard from her in roughly a decade.
I then got another report about a gal I had dealt with many, many years ago. She’s had several Baby Daddies, one of her kids, born with many birth defects, died, and her now adult son, who showed so much promise, is in jail for armed robbery. Like I said, we dated some 20 years ago. The years have not been kind.
It prompted me to lookup other Women I’ve dealt with in the past. To a Woman, none of them “upgraded” after our time together came to an end. They either remained alone (and really, who among us truly chooses to be alone?), or, they’ve downgraded in terms of the Men they now deal with. None have married. At least one that I know of, has gotten divorced. And among other years, the years have not been kind lookswise either, I’m sad to say.
Such a pattern begs several questions, at least it does for me-what is to be learnt here? The answer, as far as I’m concerned, is a bittersweet one: that what Aoefe said about me, was undoubtedly true-but put against the overall backdrop of our times, it wasn’t something to feel too proud about. That none of my previous ladies could find another Good Man, while ego-gratifying to me, is in a very real way, deeply saddening.
In an Age where every jot and tittle is remanded for peer review and statistical models, and at a time when Bad Boys are doing better than ever, that old saying “A Good Man is hard to find” couldn’t have more resonance, more meaning. And if anyone knows this, it’s Women. The vast majority of them can get Male company in a heartbeat’s notice by simply putting it out there. The trick is finding-and keeping-a Good Man. And because the qualities of what makes one a Good Man don’t usually matchup with things like youth, usually Women have to a bit longer in the tooth before such hardwon wisdom begins to catch on. By then though, not always, but often, Time has had its say…and makes it all that tougher to find such a guy.
As it often happens, in any operation, there will be casualties of war, collateral damage that often cannot be avoided…to say nothing of unintended consequences. Although I’ve never met her, and may never even speak to her on the horn, I feel sorry for Women like Aoefe. She has the kind of spirit that makes Men wanna, to paraphrase Usher. And clearly, she does not agree with many of the directions her Sisters have taken things in as many years. Yet, she’s caught in the mid – like quite a few other ladies I know. In many ways, I see her as a kind of casualty of war.
The Autumn has always been a time of deep reflection for me. It was the time of year that took both my parents-last month marks the seventh year of my mother’s leaving this world-next month, the eleventh-year mark for my father. And I’ve lost many friends and relatives at this time of year as well. On another level, reflecting back on the “deaths” of my past relationships has the same kind of bittersweet reckonings, too.
The Obsidian
38 Comments
Funny how no one has left a comment till now Obsidian.
Very, very insightful post. I gotta agree with you that there is a an absolute dearth of good men out there. Men who are both good men and providers.
One of the things I don’t like about a lot of the “Game Misogynists” is the immediate assumption that the men are all right and that the women are flawed. I’m so glad in a way that I don’t have daughters because I despair of the quality of men out there. Sure there are a lot of seriously flawed women out there, but there is a shitload of seriously flawed men out there as well.
Guys who don’t even have the basics. As you have noted before, absolute slobs without any dress sense at all. No interest in anything outside of pussy and getting drunk. No ambition. Men who can bed lots of women but whose vision of life has not changed one iota from when they were 19. Shit, if I were a woman I would find them profoundly unsatisfying.
I had the benefit of a father, who despite his faults, taught his son that he must be a man in company, a friend in the house and a lover in bed. And a man does not break his promises. Ever. The old man had a vision of manhood(which he himself failed at times) but which he did manage to get across to his son. And it was a vision that was not premised on any type of reward, rather, living any other way was beneath him. To many boys don’t get the benefit of what I got. It’s a shame. And with the modern socio-political climate punishing manly virtue by punishing good men and rewarding evil is it any wonder that there is a shortage of good men.
Remember Falling Down, that was one hell of a deep movie–on so many levels–that got ignored very quickly. I think it spoke to a lot of good men, even though the main character was a bit like George Sodini.
Still the Sisters are partially responsible themselves for the predicament they are in. Men will sharpen up if that’s what it takes to get action, but when the rewards go to the dregs of society is it any wonder that no man wants to aspire. Swimming against the tide is so damn hard.
Slumlord,
Hey, thanks for chiming in. And yup, I too took notice of the dearth of commenters on this post. Quite interesting to see.
Yesterday, commenter DADT asked me to speak/write a bit about my life in the Blue Collar world; by her tone and words, she seemed to be suggesting that guys from the White Collar world were fundamentally lacking things that would make *them* “Good Men”. Or maybe that’s what I’m reading into her comments.
At any rate, my father and grandfather reminded me a lot of the description of your dad, and yea, I’ll say it-the Death of the American Working Class meant in many, many ways, the Death of Manhood, too. No need to launch off into a kind of circular firing squad here, because there’s enough blame to go around. And yup, DADT’s right-I’ve often noted in several venues, that I’m singular among regular commenters for being from among the Despised Classes, the Great Unwashed, and yet, how my supposed betters sound so bereft, so empty, so vapid, so…UN-Manly.
Still, its hard to argue what al but the most ideologically or naively blind can easily see right outside their front door-that the knuckleheads and knuckledraggers, like the Tucker Max’s of the world, can and do get rewarded early and often, not by the Ho’s of the world, but the supposed best and brightest Feminine America has to offer. That’s a very, very bitter pill for young Men, heck, ANY Man, to swallow, and the fact that so many people, especially Women, try to deny this, is worse than a slap in the face or a kick in the teeth. It is a form of betrayal, and which forms the basis of much of the deepseated anger we see in the blogosphere and beyond.
I don’t pretend to be a Saint, perfect, flawless-indeed I have quite a few of the latter two, and I highly doubt anyon will nominate me for canonization after my remains are commited to the ground. Yet, I can hold my head up high, and say, that yes, on balance I’m a Good Guy-even while being such, or being recognized as such, simply doesn’t mean as much as it used to. But it still means something to me.
That the excellent film, Falling Down, was so very prescient, what, some 15-plus years later, wrt the George Sodini tragedy, again sends chills up my spine, and is a bad portent of things to come. And that, like you rightly observed, that not only the film itself, but the real life events that followed it so many years later, was hastily swept under the rug by our mass consciousness, is both hardly surprising nor encouraging. Even in the midst of systemic collapse after Enron, WorldCom, Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns and CIT and GM, people still want to pretend nothing happened.
Which brings me to other observations that I hope to be making soon. For now, let me simply say that, dealing with the grim realities of life and death, loss of a limb or a career ending injury, making something with your hands or not making the grade and finding yourself out of a job because of a failure to produce, that tends to sharpen one’s senses while at the same time gives one a view of the world that can only come from such an experience. Our Dads came from that world. They produced you and I.
God help the Men our society now produces.
And the rest of us.
The Obsidian
It is a form of betrayal, and which forms the basis of much of the deepseated anger we see in the blogosphere and beyond.
Yeah, I must admit that I get put off by a lot of those men. Instead of wanting to change all they do is sit around and moan, especially about woman. The other thing that goads me is that many of these guys, so good at analyzing the faults of women never turn the magnifying glass onto themselves.
Working to make yourself attractive to women sometimes actually makes you a better man. Like you I’m a big believer in inner game.
“And with the modern socio-political climate punishing manly virtue by punishing good men and rewarding evil is it any wonder that there is a shortage of good men.”……..
Same could be said for women. Men go ga-ga-goo-goo over women who look “hot” and show off their bodies. Modest women get a pass.
“the Tucker Max’s of the world, can and do get rewarded early and often, not by the Ho’s of the world, but the supposed best and brightest Feminine America has to offer.”
………
What “best and brightest” women are rewarding Tucker Max??? Just because women are in college doesn’t mean they are “best and brightest”!
Obs, you claim to be a “good man” and no doubt, in many ways I’m sure you must be, but at the same time you are openly polyamorous. Sorry, but to many women that does not scream “good man I should settle down and have kids with”.
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Same could be said for women. Men go ga-ga-goo-goo over women who look “hot” and show off their bodies. Modest women get a pass.
Two important points:
1) guys 16-25 years old will chase hot women and ignopre more modest ones. But those guys are not ready for marriage. Girls their age, however, are. Marriage shoud be a guy around 27-34 marrying a girl in her early 20s.
2) A great many of the nice, pretty modest girl-next-door types no longer exist due to the obesity epidemic. So guys have to pick from a few hot overvalued women and lots of undesirable fat women.
“Marriage shoud be a guy around 27-34 marrying a girl in her early 20s.”……..
Good luck finding a woman in her early 20s who WANTS to marry.
DADT,
Actually, my personal preference is for monogamy, and have said as much publicly; for example, I am against Gay Marriage, but I am also against Polygamy, too, for several reasons. Simply put, it’s not a good public policy move. Personally, there have been times in my life when I wasn’t ready to settle down to one Woman and I said so from the outset. This is far and away better and fair to a Woman than what normally happens, which is the Woman is duped by a less than honest Man. Presently, I am in a monogamous LTR.
As for the “best and brightest” remark, true, merely attending college does not guarantee success, but it is a legitimate and reasonable assumption to make predictively. Women attending Brown, Cornell, UPenn, UNC Chapel Hill, Columbia, Northwestern, etc et al, can be reasonably assumed to be among the best and brightest this country has to offer insofar as its young Women are concerned. That Tucker Max or guys like him have an all access pass to these gals says something very profound and powerful to me. It would behoove you to examine why so many of these Women consistently choose the TM’s of the world instead of the proverbial nice guys so many pay so much lip service to.
Finally, I don’t recall PA saying anything about the desires of younger Women to marry, only that it was his view that a certain age for them was best for it.
I notice that you tend not to actually speak to the topic at hand. I am wondering why this is?
The Obsidian
DADT:
“And with the modern socio-political climate punishing manly virtue by punishing good men and rewarding evil is it any wonder that there is a shortage of good men.”……..
Same could be said for women. Men go ga-ga-goo-goo over women who look “hot” and show off their bodies. Modest women get a pass.
I don’t believe the moral parity you are trying to impute here works. Not quite anyway.
Beauty is an objectively *good* quality. Unless you propose that beautiful women are *inherently* more corrupt than plain or modest women, I think you’d have to agree that desiring beautiful women over plain women is an objectively good thing, all else being equal. It brings more beauty in the world.
But women who pass over hard-working, good-looking, modest gentlemen in favor of Tucker Max assholes, knuckle-dragging douchebags, and sociopathic badboys/gangbangers/drugdealers are actually making society worse. It’s a regressive, de-evolutionary drag on the culture.
Good luck finding a woman in her early 20s who WANTS to marry
I married a 22/23 year old at my 34/35 (wanting to keep things vague online). I’ll grant that many girls that age are distracted by other things, but that’s a commentary on things as they are.
I think a lot of young girls DO want to marry early, but cultural pressures,including de-fact age segregation, prevent them from it.
OBS: First off OBS, I’ve enjoyed your comments in the blogosphere and I’m glad you’ve picked up this blogging thing. Your perspective as an upwardly mobile black man is representative of a substantial portion of this newly formed niche of the internet where men gather and discuss relationships in conjunction with the issues of the world.
Second point, very thoughtful post. Your experiment mirrors what I have found in my life recently. I have been called “A Good Man” many times and I’ve also received recent updates about past loves and NONE of the reports have been pretty. I know many many women that are in Aoefe’s predicament and they lament about the lack of quality in the marketplace. However, I’ve noticed some similar traits in the women I’ve observed who cannot find a good man. Many of them have put themselves in the situation that they are currently in by, in their youth being very much into the hook-up/club culture or getting knocked up by some guy with no means or intention of providing for her or the child, or putting everything else including her career, education, and even her maternalism. Now Mother Time has come to receive her payment. This leaves them bitter and that bitterness exposes itself when they do interact with a Good Man. They get pumped and dumped a couple of times and their bitch sheilds go into the stratosphere and Good Men don’t want to be bothered (at least I don’t).
Also, many women nowadays neglect or never bother to discover the art of mystery, modesty, and femininity. Femininity being the most important, they believe men want to talk basketball with them and drink beer. When in reality we want the opposite we want to see in them what we don’t and can’t see in the men we hang around. The era of the loud obnoxious shrew is upon us and many women have been duped into believing that behavior is attractive.
On the other hand this begs the question as to why there aren’t many Good Men in the marketplace I believe that many men have refused to participate in the Peacocking or PUA environment and just disengage from the system. Men have no incentive to learn how to be an Alpha Provider. The journey is too frought with pitfalls and traps by the Government, the Family Court System, Gold Diggers, Whores, or Shrews in Training to be worth the journey. It is just easier to be an Alpha with one mission, and not get invested in the outcome of society and or the relationship. For what, I’d say in this day and age it is becoming much more difficult for a Good Man to find a Good Woman. SB
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Tupac Chopra makes an excellent point.
I also enjoyed reading the reflective side of Obsidian in this blog post.
——
PA, Tupac, Slickback and Obs,
Regarding the “moral parity” between guys and girls, look, in today’s high-speed internet and media driven world, “hot” is a word you hear bantered around everywhere, even people post 40 are using it.
Though not all that good-looking, Tucker Max is seen as “hot” because he is a (semi)famous dude who can make girls that sleep with him (semi)famous. Once girl titled her blog “isleptwithtuckermax.blogspost” didn’t she?
He’s an ass and he’s getting rewarded by sluts because it’s “hot” to be an ass these days.
FOR WOMEN: being “hot” means not only looking good (natural beauty is not really a factor in “hotness” I’m seeing) but rather DRESSING and ACTING the part.
I see it all the time. Women who are not all that naturally beautiful (without makeup you wouldn’t notice them), but they dress in a manner that men find “sexy”, they flirt, and they give off a general “erotic” vibe…. those are the women that get “rewarded” in terms of attention from men.
Women with naturally attractive features who do not wear makeup or dress sexy or flirt, are given a pass.
They may be sitting alone in a coffee shop
with their heads buried in their books. Nobody notices them. In walks Miss Thang with some cleavage showing and red lips and all heads turn.
She is rewarded. Natural, modest, smart girl is not.
It’s just not in the nature for some women to act flirty or carry themselves in a sexy way. Some women are naturally modest and low-key, but ATTRACTIVE AND GOOD WOMEN.
Also, believe it or not, there are still some women left in this world who want to be courted for a significant amount of time before they put out. How many men in this day and age are willing to date a woman (going dutch) for 6 months BEFORE getting sex?
Not many, if any.
They will soon become sexually frustrated with Miss Right and hit the clubs to find Miss Right Now.
Again, good girl loses out. Even if she is pretty.
Regarding early marriage for women (even men). If it wasn’t for American pop culture (“hot” this/”hot”that) and we instead promoted sustainable marriages and families, I think MOST men and women both would view early marriage as desireable.
I see in countries that have little to no dating culture, both men and women view marriage as something to look forward to.
In this country, where seriel “relationships” are valued, marriage in general, what to speak of early marriage, is seen as a curse, as a type of jail sentence. People feel like they are missing out on something called “variety”.
This is not women’s fault. Within the last 20 years, and especially now, young people are being brainwashed to think that loose sexuality with a wide variety of partners is a desirable thing, a noble thing, and that in order to get all that, you have to look “hot”.
So when men who are looking for an actual wife say she has to be “hot”… do they even realize what that word implies?
Hot means hot, fellas.
Be careful what you ask for.
Pshaw. Any man with a functioning dick knows the difference between a genuine beauty who is having a “casual day” and a slightly above average girl with tons of makeup, teased hair, fancy clothes, etc.
See here:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/11/28/why-a-cheating-woman-is-worse-than-a-cheating-man/#comment-38669
This idea that makeup and clothes can obscure the differences of *natural* beauty that exist among women is a fantasy promulgated by plain chicks who are jealous of genuine beauties getting all the attention. It allows them to indulge in moral superiority. As if the makeup they are so heroically refusing to apply would put them in the same league.
The only guys who actually prefer the fake-tits, fake-tanned, caked-on-make-up type of women are the real knuckledraggers in this world. Low-foreheads, etc.
Any man with a brain can discern real beauty from fake.
Well, Tupac, I see it all the time.
I’m not talking ugly Bettys here. I’m talking pretty women who dress down vs. OK looking women who dress in ways that show off their curves and flirt and give off the sexy vibe.
@DADT- It’s a vicious arms/beauty race on the Y chromosome end of the spectrum the so called plain janes are the main ones running to the PUAs for some validation that they are “hot”. A good guy can barely get on their radar because the guy is not peacocking or running some game. Game, in this day and age, is the only equalizer men have. Unfortunately the nuclear family has been destroyed and traditional male roles have been marginalized so young men of today and even some old ones have to learn game from books or the interwebs instead of their fathers, uncles and brothers. Game is to be taught by someone who can watch over the student. Nurture them in the ways of manhood, courtship, romance and the responsibilities that come with LTRs. What we have going on now is men picking up bits and pieces of game and some of those pieces are exposing the ugly underside of the female psyche without garnering a full appreciation of the nurturing maternal nature of women. That’s a lot of power to be thrust upon persons not ready for the responsibility and not being given the entire blueprint. So what you get is a dearth of “Good Men” and a surplus of everything else.
I hear you Slickback.
Probably most men and women would be “good” if left to their own devices, but I say our high-tech and media-driven world is brainwashing them with constant over-stimulation of “hot”.
But even the so-called “good guys” like Obs and others pine for the hot, popular “it” girls. Beta-omega dudes would rather sit at home with 5 fingers pining for the hotties at the club then picking up the phone and giving a call to the beta-omega girl down the block who is also lonely.
To address your point Obs, about your ex’s not fairing well at all after you, well, you admitted that for a while you were polyamorous and not ready to settle down with one woman. So if you are insinuating that they should have stuck it out with you -WHY? Afterall, you yourself said you were not ready….
What’s a woman to do?
Obsidian
You may want to check this article by an anti-feminist woman.
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giving a call to the beta-omega girl down the block who is also lonely.
There are a few non-negotiables; the most common one through which “beta/omega” girls disqualify themselves are obesity.
All guys, be it alphas or betas, would be delighted to date a slim, pleasant but unspectacular girl-next-door. But with a few exceptions, they became extinct sometime around 1989. Their daughters are all fat.
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DADT,
What bee got under yor bonnett? LOL. Now you’re gonna come after ME, huh?
Again, nice try-but the Women I mentioned were all LTRs-*monogamous* LTRs. When I was in “MLTR” mode, I explicitly made it clear that I was NOT ready to settle down, and gave the Women involved every right and chance to seek satisfaction elsewhere. If you had read The Game, you’d know what I did, long before I ever even knew the book, or the topic upon which it was based, existed.
Can’t get much fairer than that.
Let me also say this-when I’m monogamous, I stick to it. I don’t go messing around. It’s not fair to her, and it dishonors me. I don’t buy this idea that I can’t get sex unless I lie, cheat or steal. My personal experience has told me otherwise.
The Obsidian
Yeah, but you were NOT ready to settle down and MARRY them, be the father of their kids.
If you were not ready, how can you blame them for moving on? It’s unfortunate that the men they moved on to were low-quality, but that happens.
Now you are gloating that they could not find better than you. Well, you were NOT available for marriage and family at the time.
Maybe if you would have married one, she wouldn’t be miserable now.
“There are a few non-negotiables; the most common one through which “beta/omega” girls disqualify themselves are obesity.
All guys, be it alphas or betas, would be delighted to date a slim, pleasant but unspectacular girl-next-door.”
As long as she is a five, while the guys themselves are threes. Unfortunately, the left-hand side of the bell curve doesn’t want anything to do with each other. Guys are much more willing to screw down than women, so omega/beta women have more sex options, but very few settling down options. Omega/low-beta guys have neither.
I think if you were not dating a women with an eye towards marriage Obs, then under girl definition, you were probably not a “Good Guy”. Instead you were a guy perfectly willing to use up her youth, sex, and convenience. The guy equivalent of a LJBF.
Deery, DADT,
LOL. I see this mustve struck a raw nerve.
Actually none of the things you mentioned had to do with the relationships I mentioned. In fact, in only a few of the ones mentioned, did the idea of marriage even come up, on either side. In most cases, that wasn’t an issue.
And even allowing for what you both said, the fact remains that NONE of the Women involved upgraded. They either remained alone, or downgraded-and let’s be clear here. They hadn’t “aged out” or were dogged out by me either-like I said, in several cases, it had been years, a decade or more, since wehad broken up. And, as I think it was Slickback or Dragnet corroborates, I’m far from alone. At some point you just gotta recognize reality.
You get what you give, ladies. Women take more risks when it comes to sex and relationships. Rewarding the Tucker Max’s, even if its only by a segment of you, actually winds up hurting far more Women than Men.
That in part, was my point. Slumlord’s points, piggybacking on my post from last week, “Are You A Slob?” speaks to other contributing factors. But let’s not kid ourselves here-in the sexual marketplace, Women are the “sellers”, Men the buyers. Who has the power to make real change here? Sure, both can and do, but at the end of the day, barring rape (or in this analogy, “theft”), Women have the final say as to who gets lucky, and who doesn’t.
I’m just sayin’.
The Obsidian
I think its highly unlikely that Obsidian’s relationship with these women had any influence upon their subsequent behavior. Like anyone else, these women are what they are and their manifested behavior can only be considered their true selves. The only thought that occurred to me while reading this posting is that Obsidian ought to associate with better quality women. He certainly has both the charm and the intelligence to do so.
I think the rest of you are reading way too much into all of this.
The only guys who actually prefer the fake-tits, fake-tanned, caked-on-make-up type of women are the real knuckledraggers in this world.
I’m a knuckledragger?
deery:
I think if you were not dating a women with an eye towards marriage Obs, then under girl definition, you were probably not a “Good Guy”. Instead you were a guy perfectly willing to use up her youth, sex, and convenience. The guy equivalent of a LJBF.
Oh please. So a man pledges fidelity, takes care of his woman, sexes her, forms a bond of friendship in addition to all of that, stays with her for a year or two, and just because he is not willing to get involved in a state-sanctioned *ceremony* — along with its potential legal woes — you say he is just USING HER???
What the hell?
What more do you want from a man? Blood from a stone?
Are things not fair to you women when you don’t have absolutely 100% of what you want? Fucking spoiled brats.
I can respect a woman who acknowledges her needs and decides to leave a man who is not marriage minded, but to accuse him of “LJBF” or “using” her is quite simply self-centered BULLSHIT on your part.
Kurt,
That same thought occured to me as well-however, the majority of the Women I was speaking about were college educated, came from two parent homes, etc. It’s just something that, once I really sat down to think about, couldn’t really ignore. That was a very deep realization to make, and again, one that I don’t take a great deal of pirde and joy in relaying. The simple fact of the matter is that Good Guys are in seriously short supply. Don’t take my word for it-head to any gathering of Women near you and see for yourself. Ask around-look around.
One thing I suddenly found out as I embarked on my own journey, was that as I strove the better myself, I got A LOT more attention from the ladies than I got previously. Buddies from work, who would tell their ladyfriends about me, wanted them to fix me up with them-because let’s face it, how Black Men do you know who is known to work doubleshifts as a daily matter of course?
A Good Guy can more quickly land an equally Good Woman than the other way around-that’s the little secret that doesn’t get out enough in Game/PUA circles, and it should.
The Obsidian
“I think if you were not dating a women with an eye towards marriage Obs, then under girl definition, you were probably not a “Good Guy”. Instead you were a guy perfectly willing to use up her youth, sex, and convenience. The guy equivalent of a LJBF.
Oh please. So a man pledges fidelity, takes care of his woman, sexes her, forms a bond of friendship in addition to all of that, stays with her for a year or two, and just because he is not willing to get involved in a state-sanctioned *ceremony* — along with its potential legal woes — you say he is just USING HER???”
A woman wants relationship security the same way a man wants sex from a woman. LJBF friends gives guys a relationship, but no sex. A “live-in” situation gives women sex, but no security. Would say that woman who gives a guy all the fun talks in the world, was great buddies with a guy, yet knowing that the guy wanted more, was using him? What if you were with a woman, knowing that she wanted more from the relationship? Are you using her?
A woman wants relationship security the same way a man wants sex from a woman. LJBF friends gives guys a relationship but no sex. A “live-in” situation gives women sex, but no security.
You dumb bitch. Are you saying that any long-term relationship that is not a marriage is a form of exploitation? Are you saying that only a legal contract makes a relationship worthwhile? Gee, I always thought there was this thing called “love” that you women went on and on about. You know, this whole idea about “sharing experience” and “being intimate” and “being soulmates”, etc.
I guess all of that is nonsense unless there’s a ring on her finger, eh?
What if you were with a woman knowing that she wanted more from the relationship? Are you using her?
Not at all. Aren’t you gals all “independent women” now? That means you can make your own decisions — including whether to stay or go.
Well whaddyaknow
I like the place.
The simple fact of the matter is that Good Guys are in seriously short supply. Don’t take my word for it-head to any gathering of Women near you and see for yourself. Ask around-look around.
I’d second that.
Women have the final say as to who gets lucky, and who doesn’t.
I think that this is a far far under appreciated fact. Most men will do what it takes to get action. If going to church regularly will do it, they will go to church. The problem is that the rewards are going to the bad boys.
But at a more deeper level there is another problem. With college educated women in particular, there is a shortage of good men. Most of the college educated guys are mono-dimensional. Sure they may have their degree in engineering, accounting, etc. but for all other purposes are indistinguishable from a regular guy. All the other qualities are absent: grooming, culture and self-restraint. Civilized men are absent. Guys that do posses some of the “finer” qualities of a man tend to be gay, there does not seem to be a capacity to produce men who are cultured in a masculine sense.
A Good Guy can more quickly land an equally Good Woman than the other way around-that’s the little secret that doesn’t get out enough in Game/PUA circles, and it should.
Agreed. One of the biggest boosts to my inner game came the day I recognised I was quality: I could choose. It really was like that moment in the Matrix when Neo realises he can stop bullets.
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One of the biggest boosts to my inner game came the day I recognised I was quality
That’s a simple and yet a powerful insight. Don’t know why, but kinda reminded me of this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY6k50qB4Ys
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…majority of the Women I was speaking about were college educated, came from two parent homes, etc.
This is quite disturbing to hear.
The simple fact of the matter is that Good Guys are in seriously short supply. Don’t take my word for it-head to any gathering of Women near you and see for yourself. Ask around-look around.
This is also disturbing to hear, but not as surprising as the first.
I have not been in the U.S. dating market really since 1989, due to both matrimony and the fact I lived in Asia during most of the time since 1991 (although I am currently in the U.S. today). So, I am clueless about the realities of modern day U.S. social scene. It seems as though I’m not missing much.
“I am clueless about the realities of modern day U.S. social scene. It seems as though I’m not missing much.”
……..
You’re not missing anything at all.
“A Good Guy can more quickly land an equally Good Woman than the other way”
……..
Why do you think that is?
Testimony:
A typical woman’s “wish list” for a Good Man might run like this: kind, funny, smart, honest, generous, dependable, single (!), ambitious, cultured, good earning potential, clean & healthy (ie no substance abuse or STD), interested in a monogamous relationship and not insisting on a supermodel.
Sound impossible? At the time I exited college, 20+ years ago, I could have given to any woman who asked the name, address, phone and blood type of TEN MEN who could check EVERY ONE of the boxes on this list. True story, zero exaggeration. (Note: the ten do not include the author, so this is not personal.)
And, know what? They were all single because no woman would give them a second look, or even the time of day. Why? Don’t know for sure, but probably because they weren’t suave, didn’t have Game, didn’t dress sharp, couldn’t read “signals,” wore their good hearts out in public instead of acting like entitled assholes. Whatever, it doesn’t matter.
My information is >20 years old; but unless things have changed a lot since then, I refuse to believe that there’s a “good man” shortage. It’s that women don’t want them. Period.
“And, know what? They were all single because no woman would give them a second look, or even the time of day. Why?”…….
Because looks also matter. Were they handsome or at least “cute”? Handsome dudes get second looks.
DADT — In direct answer to your question, some were cute, and a few were handsome — if you could see past the lack of attention to personal grooming (see above under “didn’t dress sharp”). All were pretty fit, none were ugly, basically a distribution in the great middle of the pack.
Looks _do_ matter, I couldn’t disagree. But if you are saying that being handsome is all-important to a man for getting some action, then you are basically agreeing — are you not? — that the list of “good” qualities doesn’t count for very much at all. Which was my main point.
It seems to be pretty well agreed-upon by the readership here that women’s priorities in choosing men are overwhelmingly along the lines of (1) Status, which can be proxied by confidence, (2) Good looks, (3) Money. The qualities on the “good” list above are way, way behind in priority. This is reality, and we have to deal with it. But what I’d like is for women to tell the truth: if you do prioritize status and looks above “good”, then don’t complain when “good” is not available since that’s not what you really wanted. Don’t say you want one thing most when you really want another even more. It’s pretty simple.
I think a lot of young girls DO want to marry early, but cultural pressures,including de-fact age segregation, prevent them from it.
I’m 6 years younger than my husband, so it’s possible. And it seems to work well with that age difference: she’s nubile and fertile, he’s settled and mature. Also, there’s the obvious benefit that she’s ALWAYS much younger than him, forever.
But there’s a lot of pressure out there for women to wait until they’re pushing 30. Even when they meet the man they want to marry, they’re still told to wait. And then make a run to the infertility clinic. It wasn’t until I read “What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us” that the stupidity of that move became plain to me.
I’ll chime in if only because my name is mentioned. First I have to admit I bristled at thinking people feel sorry for me. Last thing I like to engender in people is pity. I’m a single women in her hit the wall years but am not crying about it. I am content and yet still desire a mate. I think I can combine being open to a relationship with enjoying where I’m at this point of my life. A number of factors contributed to why I’m where I am today and most of them were my decisions over the years. I could marry next year if I chose to, I choose not to because I’d be terribly unhappy if I settled just to settle down. I honestly don’t think there’s as much of a shortage of good men as some people think – either that or I’m naive. Good men have good intentions simple as that. Most men have good intentions they may not know how to carry them out is all. The fact is there are many complicated factors involved in finding the ‘right’ good man, not a good man. Sigh…