If you’ve been part of the blogosphere for any length of time, it won’t be long before you stumble across the “HBDsphere”, a corner of the Internet that comprises of a bunch of mainly anonymous voices who consider themselves self-styled “scientists” and who cotton to the idea that human beings evolved differently over long stretches of time in accordance to their environment; these adaptations will be different depending on the locale said groups of people-ie, different races-find themselves.

So, the theory goes, that Africa, with its ever present food and hot climate, doesn’t require as much “smarts” to survive as say, the farther reaches of China, or northern reaches of Europe. It takes more smarts to figure out how to survive the harsh winters there, and over time people evolved to deal with said environment.

What this basically means, is that both White and Asian folk are smarter than Black and Brown folk, so say the HBD crowd. Actually, if one wants to get technical about it, is that Asians are smarter than errbody else, per standardized IQ tests, which, to the HBD guys, is the end all be all of life.

Of course, somebody forgot to tell the HBD folk that if IQ was all it took to be all that, then why is it that China is the social, political and economic basketcase it is today? Why is corruption seemingly associated with being Asian? Why is that the last two remaining self-identified Communist countries today, Asian? Moreover, why hasn’t any advanced Asian country-China, Japan, South Korea-made any important discoveries or made groundbreaking inventions? The HBD guys will occasionally take a half-hearted swing at these questions, in an effort to look “fair & balanced”, but they save all their gunpowder for what they like to call “NAMs”-which means Non Asian Minority-in another word, Blacks and Hispanics.

They take their grids and graphs, flowcharts and sliderules, to “prove” that it is because of “NAMs” that our society is crumbling apart. From the economy to the War On Terror, to Sports and Entertainment, you name the societal ill, and you can betcha bottom dollah that some “NAM” is right at the heart of it. Even when few if any “NAMs” are directly involved, like, say, the utter meltdown on Wall Street last year-still, because they received loans and mortages, it’s still ALL THEIR FAULT (of course, the HBD types, being the Cognitive Masters Of The Universe, have very rational and salient reasons as to why NONE OF THEM have actually examined those who were actually able to make it possible for said “NAMs” to get those loans in the first place…yea, that’s the ticket).

A favorite topic of the HBD types is Eugenics, and especially discussing how to get “NAMs” to basically screw less. Their argument is, that not only are they outbreeding the “right people”, which basically means, people like the HBD types (of course!), but the products of their loins are almost certainly destined to live their lives on the dole and repeat the cycle over again, or, spend large swaths of their lives in prison. They talk a great deal about varying schemes that would convince “NAMs” not to have so many babies, like, for example, getting the powers that be to institute specifically targeted contraceptive programs and the like.

For such an ostensibly smart group of guys-and in the main, they ARE guys-they don’t seem to get that historically speaking, Eugenics programs don’t tend to workout very well, at least not in free democracies like the USA. And even if they did hold out some promise, Hitler killed all that noise for at least another century.

So, why all the focus on trying to prevent “NAMs” to breed?

The argument goes, that they’re both a fiscal and cultural drain on our society, which HBD types see as the pinnacle of Western Civilization; in fact, it can often be heard by one or more of the more vocal HBD bloggers, that these and other measures-like ending Affirmative Action and the “blackout” as to who really commits violent street crime-are needed regardless as to their political incorrectness, in order to “Save Western Civ!”. Of course, it doesn’t occur to any of these nerds, that their ideas, beyond sounding downright weird, are also highly untenable.

Which brings us to the question-exactly WHO are the HBDers? It won’t take long in such blogosphere environs to catch on to the fact that the HBDsphere is made up largely of highly educated White Males, from their 20s to early 50s; usually single, almost always atheist. And by any account, they sound very angry. In fact, if a character could be associated with the HBD bloggers, it would “D-Fens”-the character portrayed by Michael Douglas in the early 90s hit Falling Down. These guys are in many ways, like him: smart, but to a fault; in many ways, anti-social; not smart in the ways that would move him up the social ladder, and as such is a kind of highly sophisticated cog in the wheel, and when he’s cast aside as the Cold War ends (“D-Fens” works as a weapons engineer for one of California’s big defense manufacturers), and his wife leaves him for good, “D-Fens” cracks. He lacks the “soft” skills to navigate these life pressures, and he reacts…violently…when his pocket protector and sliderule are rendered useless to help him deal with life’s problems.

That, I think, is an important point about the HBDsphere; unlike “D-Fens”, these guys have a place to blow off some steam in a safe way, and to that extent that’s good. But the problem with these guys is, that for all their brainpower, individually, collectively, even comparatively speaking when one considers those dreaded “NAMs”, they never stop to consider *is there anything wrong with ME* that may have something to do with why they feel as they do.

If the HBD types were truly as interested in the subject (oh, and by the way, “HBD” means Human BioDiversity), they would take their dispassionate stellar intellects and examine the excesses and pitfalls of the right side of the Bell Curve, as well as the left-like, for example, what if any “downsides” there can be to being, well, too smart? Studies into the matter would seem to be so. In fact, even some of the heroes of the HBD Guys, like JP Rushton, has said as much, in interviews and in print-he once crudely said, you either get too much IQ, or too much penis, but not both.

It may be crude-and Rushton has gotten himself into trouble for making quite a few off-color, pardon the pun, remarks over the course of his career-but he makes a point his own, most devout acolytes seem to either shy away from, or never get around to mentioning, that Nature is full of tradeoffs. For every “advantage” there is a potential “disadvantage”, and the narrow, obsessive focus by the HBD types on IQ, doesn’t take into account that one, there are many other factors that can make or break a person or indeed a society, than merely how high or low one’s IQ score is; and two, that if there are inherent problems associated with low IQ-couldn’t the same be said of the reverse?

For example, let’s take a look at the HBDers themselves. As mentioned before, virtually all of them are atheists. Could that impact in some way on their lives? Hell yea, it could and, according to one of the HBDers’ own, a blogger known as Half Sigma, it does: not only is atheism more likely to be found among high IQ folks, *more* MEN are likely to be atheists than Women-which means, in simple math that even a lowly “NAM” could understand, that there aren’t enough atheist Women to go around for all the high IQ White guys. That means that said guys either have to figure out how to deal with the hordes of believing Women, or, look toward a life being lived…alone.

Which leads to another insight by the same HBD blogger, Half Sigma-that high IQ White Men are the biggest purchasers of prostitution and escort services in the country. To be sure, whores and escorts get clients from all walks of life, but when one stops to think about it, what HS says here would make a lot of sense. Afterall, one doesn’t need to be an egghead to know that nerds aren’t exactly the most socially well-adjusted guys around, that there tends to be, in raw numbers, more nerdy guys than gals, and that nerds don’t usually seek to be flexible in the ways in which they see the world and interact with it-all of whom have to be clear and obvious “tradeoffs” for such high IQs. Yet, no one on the HBD side never, ever, talks about this.

Half Sigma hits a trifecta when he notes that high IQ White guys tend to remain single longer, and have fewer kids when they finally do marry-and its been noted that there is indeed a correlation between high IQ and lowered testosterone levels. Looks like Rushton was right.

Perhaps the last nail in the coffin here, is in the online persona of FeministX, a Hindu American Princess blogger who fell in love with the HBD community and they most certainly love her back-they slobber over her like a hungry pack of Saint Benards over a turkey leg. She’s one of the few young Women in the community, who’s halfway decent looking and can hold a conversation of the type HBD geeks like to have, like about being put on ice after you die so you can be thawed out a century or two from now, or in getting a few digs on them nasty “proles” and so on. That FemX has basically made her bones by showing her body and appearing in a virtually all Male venue such as the HBD & Gamespheres, pretty much backs up Half Sigma’s previously mentioned posts. In a word, the smarter you are, the less likely you’re gonna be spending much time around or among lovely looking Women.

Since I done went there, let me end on that note-if there’s one thing that gets the HBDsphere’s attention more than “NAMs”, its the Wonderful World Of Game-what some call the “Pickup scene”. Here its not as uniform as the United Hatred of NAMs-Game seems to be held in high esteem by some HBDers, grudging respect by others, and reviled by still others. Still, because both schools of thought seem to agree on the power of Evolutionary Theory, Psychology and the like, and keeping in mind what Half Sigma has said and the presence of FeministX, it would make sense that there would be some convergence at some point-and, as those in the Game community know well, it attracts geeky, nerdy guys in search of getting laid.

I know there are those out there who rail against the notion that we Game types think that its a hammer and every problem is a nail-for my part, far from it-but I do think that a little Game would go a long way toward helping these guys blow off some steam in ways that really count, and would actually serve as a solution to many of the problems they claim to persist. Look, as they often say themselves, Demography is Destiny, and the Future belongs to those who show up for it-and the truth is, that these guys, as a group, are on a one way trip to Evolutionary Oblivion, if they don’t do something to see to it that their genes are still around three decades from now. That means, making babies, and to do that, one has to be able to appeal to Women who are willing not only to have sex with you, but also to carry your child to term and raise it, along with you, of course. But that requires a different kind of skillet these guys are used to dealing with-even gals like FemX need a different kind of skillet normally associated with geeks, and she’s said as much. Many times. TMI, lol.

So, since these guys aren’t interested in going the Mormon route-which HAS proven quite successful, because they can’t do the religion thing, then the next best thing, and perhaps, last best hope, for these guys is GAME. Learning just a little bit, could help these guys in the worthy-and much more doable-goal of making the world a better place, by helping them attract gals with which to start families. Of course, this presumes that Nature’s Revenge, if you will, won’t come roaring back and affirm what so many HBDers themselves say about the left enders-that they are genetically incapable of being smarter. If the right enders are genetically incapable of gaining the tools needed to woo and keep a Woman, then maybe being put on ice ain’t a half bad idea…

I’m just sayin’.
The Obsidian

86 Comments

    • dragnet
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 9:21 am
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    You could just call it what it is—racism. Dressed with charts and “analysis”, but still racism none the less. Why even addressed their nonsense?

    No one ever said racists were stupid—or even mean people. Just misguided, intellectually honest and filled with fear. That describes these guys to a T.

    • dragnet
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 9:22 am
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    *intellectually dishonest, is obviously what i meant

  1. Hey Dragnet,
    Come on Man, you drawin’, LOL. I’m trying to smoke these guys out using their own vaunted methods, you know, questioning them on their own turf, and all that. So, keep quiet! ;)

    The Obsidian

    • Jules Verne
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 12:20 pm
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    I couldn’t believe some of the shit I read after discovering what HBD was.

    Appalled that this shit even exists, to be honest.

    All these fuckers creeping up on game-related blogs and twisting words to prove their agenda.

    I was like, “What is this shit?”

    Always interesting to see how social competence, a large aspect of game, comes up as a solution to these socially inept hermits. (VA Tech, that George guy, etc.) Never really thought about it that way until reading game-related blogs.

  2. Actually, Obsidian, I think there are some guys in the Roissyphere who embrace HBD (although I could be wrong on that). I think Beta Revolution is one such person.

    FWIW, I don’t care much for Evo-Psych.

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 1:00 pm
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    The thing that annoys me most are these dumb terms and acronyms that get tossed around like NAMs and HBD. This is just some more of that geeky “leet” speak(I know I didn’t write it the proper geek way and I’m not going to). It’s just a way to show that you are part of the inner circle and hoping that maybe others on the outside will see you as possessing some mysterious and hidden knowledge that they need to covet. Another one of the terms that is dumb as hell: Game. That’s right. I’m not making exceptions. The very fact that it’s capitalized like that and treated as some sort of modern day sorcery for attracting women speaks volumes about it’s practitioners.

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 1:26 pm
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    And to address the content of your blog posting, I really don’t understand your insistence that IQ isn’t important. As someone that most likely has an above average IQ, you should know that your level of intelligence greatly enhances your life. While I agree that IQ isn’t the end all and be all of human existence, to say that it doesn’t have tremendous value is either incredibly naive or willfully ignorant. I’m sure you wouldn’t feel too happy about finding out your heart surgeon had an IQ of 85(not like that would be possible, just saying).

  3. Sagat,
    LOL. I find it deeply ammusing how people ttry to tear down Game on the most flimsiest of premises, like the words that are used. Fine, call it whatever you want, but it works, and has been around in one form or another for as long as there have been human beings, and what’s more, it ain’t likely to change anytime soon. *shrugs*

    As for IQ: I never, ever, said it wasn’t important or that it didn’t matter; what I AM saying, is that it is so unusual for such a small group of guys to give IQ such importance and meaning, when clearly there is more to life than that. And the fact that guys like OneSTDV simply refuses to explore the things that I have discussed in this post, just goes to show that there ARE “tradeoffs” to being highly smart geek types…mainly inflexibility, narrowness of interests, inability to handle social situations where nuance and emotion are involved, and so on. For anyone to deny what Rushton said in these regards, yet holds him up as a hero, is the very height of intellectual dishonesty.

    So – what about the rest of what I said in this regard, Sagat? What is up with that? And why don’t the HBDers, Like One, talks about it? Hmm?

    The Obsidian

    • Mack
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 2:01 pm
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    Oh shit, you mean there are guys with blogs who are using a totally vulgarized version of evo psych to attack another group of people? You don’t say!

    You mean they actually blame all America’s current problems on a historically oppressed group of people who only in the last few decades were able to get something approaching equal rights? No way! How fucking stupid.

    Look man, you and your mates go after women every day, some go so far as to say it is their moral duty to call out the fallacies of feminism, to put women in their rightful place. But lo and behold when some latent homosexual weightlifting freaks do the same thing to blacks we are all supposed to break out in tears?

    Fuck that shit. You made your bed now sleep in it.

    Perhaps OneSTDV, who is obviously gay, is just negging you? Any chance he wants to score some Obsidian ass and so he’s just using his racist homo game on you to get you all hot and bothered? And look how much blog space you have dedicated to him in return constantly trying to qualify yourself to his pasty ass? What’s up with that weak shit?

    Maybe you two should just get a hotel room and work this shit out in private.

    And after all that tension is released then maybe you can do a compare and contrast blog post: One STDV’s attitude towards blacks vs. Obsidian and the rest of the Roissy-sphere’s attitude towards women.

    • sestamibi
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 2:31 pm
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    I think many of the high-IQ HBD types are on the spectrum. This is recognized by most women, who have a keen sense for this sort of thing, and explains why women avoid them.

    The emergence of just-as-clueless geek women in high tech communities who mate with these men, with expected outcomes. My son is low-functioning autistic, so I speak from personal experience.

  4. Ses,
    Pardon me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there more Males effected by ASD than Females? And if so, wouldn’t that skew things even more against said Males?

    The Obsidian

    • deery
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 2:44 pm
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    I agree, it seems pretty obvious that most of thses HBD guys are on the spectrum. They have a system, like Game, and they study it, but thay have no idea how to be fluid with it, because they can’t pick up the nuances of human interaction, nor are they particulary good at reading people’s emotions. This will be a turn-off for most women (and most men too), these guys become recluses, and retreat to being keyboard warriors blaming women and NAMs for their failures. They fantasize that in the past, they would have ruled the earth. As if cogs in the wheel didn’t exist in the 50’s and before. But everyone likes to think that in the past, they would have been royalty, and not a serf.

  5. Mack, calm down please, I can see the veins bulging outta your neck from way over here.

    All the Gay talk is ridiculous. Either deal with the issue as presented, or take your commentary elsewhere.

    Please.

    The Obsidian

    • Phil
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 3:32 pm
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    How do you know the HBD people are geeks? They leave anonymous comments on the Internet, not much you can tell from that.

    I love what Mack said. The Roissysphere and this site in particular blame (white) women, call them stupid, call them irrational, etc. Then Obsidian gets angry when other people do it to blacks. Wonder why.

  6. Phil,
    Are you serious? And since when have I ever called White Women stupid, etc? I’d like to see that quote, please.

    The Obsidian

    • Phil
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 3:43 pm
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    Yes I am serious. Fine you didn’t call them stupid, you just blame for most of society’s ills. Much better!

    And why did you ignore my other question?

    • dragnet
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 3:49 pm
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    Mack’s comment is funny, but also dishonest. What the Roissysphere does is take the empirically observed preferences and habits of urban, white, professional young women and forged them into a highly effective system for bedding them. How is this even remotely related to old racist white men yammering on about blacks and low IQ scores?

    Game practitioners have developed their techniques by means of empiricism and strict adherence to reality. HBDers have have developed their philosophy by distorting the facts and making shit up wholesale.

    Get a clue, Mack.

  7. No, I never blamed White Women for society’s ills either. Try again.

    As for your other question, I don’t have a problem with any group getting fair criticism. What I do have a problem with, has already been outlined in this post. Please review it.

    The Obsidian

  8. Excellently well put, Dragnet.

    And if you’ve speant any amount of time at Roissy’s and elsewhere, I was always careful to note that their views, even if proven out in field, were skewed towards a certain type of Woman. My experiences with Black Women have NOT been the same.

    The Obsidian

    • Phil
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 3:57 pm
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    No the other question:

    How do you know the HBD people are geeks? They leave anonymous comments on the Internet, not much you can tell from that.

  9. Phil, Again, you can’t be serious. Ses, Deery and quite a few others have clearly suggested that at least a few of these guys have all the markers of ASD geeks. Ses has a son who has it. Come on. Stop being obtuse. How about taking up what I said about the HBDers? Any thoughts on that?

    The Obsidian

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:11 pm
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    I’m all about the TLAs.

    Anyway, how do you know the HBDers are geeks? Because many of us self-proclaim our geekhood.

    I’ve got to say that, as a married woman, I find the Game discussions hilarious. There’s one guy who is a master PUA [in his words] who recounts his exploits on the actuarial forum I frequent and the reactions to his stories just crack me up.

    But it’s true, that many in the HBD sphere seem to be guys who are frustrated that they’re not on the top of the status heirarchy that they find most important [that can be career and/or sex, usually]. And talking about these issues can make them feel superior to someone, even if those someones are the people who don’t believe in HBD.

    My own interest mainly deals with education policy. I’ve taught all sorts of levels, and I’ve got special education teachers in my family. I’ve seen the spectrum of academic ability up close, and those who think a la Nisbet that everyone can achieve the same levels is just delusional. In the meantime, a whole bunch of bad policy is passed, which often does not help the supposed beneficiaries.

    Anyway, you’re welcome to pore through what I have to say about education here:
    http://meep.livejournal.com/1838810.html

  10. Obs,

    Your best post yet.

    I actually find the idea of genetic winners and losers non-controversial, they exist for sure, but they cut across all racial and geographic lines.

    Generalizing the quality of intellect and ability within large groups of people must be tempting for some, all rationalizations are.

    Very small percentages of people from ANY group are exceptional.

    Many whites who are very non-exceptional like to identify themselves with the Einsteins, the Edisons, etc who improved everyone’s understanding of big questions and and overall quality of life.

    But that by no means means whites are exceptional.

    This topic came up in another forum I frequent and I enjoyed the following quote:

    “insofar as IQ predicts abstract reasoning ability, and insofar as abstract reasoning ability effects decision-making, and insofar as decision-making influences how the members of a society organize themselves.. i mean, cmon now.”

    This whole argument gets very circular

  11. Obs

    “And if you’ve speant any amount of time at Roissy’s and elsewhere, I was always careful to note that their views, even if proven out in field, were skewed towards a certain type of Woman. My experiences with Black Women have NOT been the same.”

    This would make for a good post.

    Did you, do I just need to check the archives?

  12. Hi Meep,
    Thanks for stopping by! And you know what, I think I’ve run accross yr blog before, I’ll stop by again soon.

    As for educational policy, in the main, Black and Brown folks don’t make it, and you might be surprised as to how many might actually agree with you. As much as it might not be pretty, tracking does have its uses. The question is in finding those students productive paths for their lives once they leave highschool, which we haven’t done for at least a generation if not longer. Again, not Black and Brown folks’ fault.

    The Obsidian

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:19 pm
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    Hey, I’m not trying to tear down “Game”. I was just pointing out the stupidity of the title it’s been giving. I personally have good relations with females and I do think about human relations and how that affects my life, but I don’t look at it as some sort “Game”. I don’t really see the need to come to blogs to work out a strategy to pick up women. I think life is a bit deeper than that.

    And with regards to your question about why so called HBDers focus on “NAMs” and IQ, I think the answer is obvious. They aren’t really “HBDers” at all. The name HBD implies that they like to discuss the science of human differences, but in truth they only like discussing how their group, Whites, is better than all the rest. They are mostly White nationalists/supremacists. I’ve given OneSTDV a hard time about this before and he got defensive and claimed that he wasn’t a White nationalist; he only wants Whites to dominate. There’s not much difference in my eyes.

    There’s some good sites out there that could truthfully call themselves HBD blogs, like GNXP or Dienekes’, but I’m pretty sure they don’t since that’s a stupid term made up by pro-White bloggers so they wouldn’t have to call themselves pro-White bloggers. I like going to sites like those myself, because I like the open and uncensored conversation that takes place there. I’m guessing probably the reason you go there too.

  13. Luvsic,
    No, I’ve yet to post something on Black Women, though I might in the very near future. Stay tuned, and thanks for the other HBD-related comments.

    The Obsidian

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:23 pm
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    And yes, I’ll be reading your blog more, Obsidian.

    [I just noticed I have verb-noun disagreement in one of my sentences above. Oh, the shame!]

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:29 pm
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    As to tracking – here’s the thing.

    I don’t want the “hard” tracking a la Europe and Japan/China. Where you’ve got one high stakes test, and you’re in or you’re out.

    Part of this is due to experiences of people I know, who didn’t know how to play the system [I was talking to my Ma last night about institutional schooling, and I said the one thing I really learned from that was how to exploit bureaucratic systems].

    The real strength of American education, is the adult education sphere, in my opinion. That’s the one thing government stays out of [for now]. There are so many choices, and I’ve tried helping lots of people navigate that maze, to find the education they really need. I have lots of family who return to formal school in their middle age, which is a flexibility many other countries don’t have.

    I’m a big supporter of real vocational training as Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs and John Ratzenberger support. I married a “blue collar” guy because I don’t have those practical skills myself. No matter the schooling our kids get, I will make sure they’ve got these practical skills… these are so much harder to outsource.

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:31 pm
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    I agree with Sagat — the kind of HBD I’m into is the stuff covered by GNXP.

  14. Sagat,
    I just want to be clear on something – you’re basically calling OneSTDV and his ilk frauds, right? One for not being upfront about what they are, and two for being as psuedo-scientific as tghe stuff they rail against and actually know nothing about, like astrology – right?

    The Obsidian

  15. Meep,
    100% agreed on adult education, without it we’d be toast. And I think that’s really the way to go for most folks, not just those who got sidetracked. In today’s world we’re long on paper and woefully short on realworld experience, and we need to get back to that.

    The Obsidian

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:47 pm
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    Hey meep,

    I’m a fan of Germany’s school system. I lived there myself for six years and I think it’s much more efficient than the American system of one size fits all. I see no reason to try to force the hard sciences on children that have no aptitude for it, let alone any interest. I think that the Hispanic and Black community would be well served by a school system that also placed heavy focus on the trades and crafts. We’d see a lot less drop outs and more students actually having real world skills that would lend themselves to a more productive society. The main problem is how to institute a system like that without accusations of racism. After all, Germany’s placement of students is determined by testing and the general idea that seems to prevalent now is that standardized tests are somehow racist.

    • Phil
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:54 pm
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    “Ses, Deery and quite a few others have clearly suggested that at least a few of these guys have all the markers of ASD geeks.”

    Some other people agree, so it must be true!

    What evidence do you have exactly? Do you know what occupations they have, their social activities, what they act like in real life?

    You read anonymous comments online. That really tells alot about someone’s personality?

    HBD people are interested in science and are smart – geeks! Great logic. Are HBD people probably less “cool” than average? I would imagine so, but that isn’t evidence of being a geek, not at all.

    Don’t avoid the question. What evidence for them actually being loser, anti-social, geeks?

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 4:58 pm
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    Hey Sagat — the thing I have about the hard and fast barriers-type tracking is that I’m not fond of people getting stuck in a track and not being able to get out [whether it's "college track" or "vocational track"].

    Kids are not fully developed, and they don’t all develop at the same speed… this is one of my beefs with institutional schooling for kids as it is [along with the indoctrination that comes]. So as long as there are multiple entry/exit points, I’m cool with it. It’s too early as a child to shut off some paths entirely.

    But then, I don’t object too highly to this type of system if there is possible entry in adulthood. I have seen some large changes amongst my relatives [one went from basic illiterate to massive book-reader in middle age], and then there’s the whole issue of the body of knowledge and skills needed changing over people’s lifetimes. This ain’t the age of medieval guilds, where one can perfect one’s craft without worrying about market shifts.

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 5:01 pm
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    BTW, y’all, there’s a distinction between geeks and nerds.

    Or have people forgotten?

    Geeks aren’t necessarily anti-social losers – they’re usually very social within their own circles. Nerds, on the other hand…

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 5:03 pm
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    Obsidian,

    That’s not exactly what I’m saying. For some it is intentional fraud. I’ve seen discussions in the past in the WN movement about creating a new image for themselves. I think a good chunk of those bloggers misrepresent themselves unintentionally. Many have pro Western/White inclinations and have a distaste for labels like White nationalist because of the obvious association with neo-nazis and their types. They see blogs like OneSTDV and he puts a much more academic face onto the feelings that they already had. Then they proceed to call themselves HBDers and feel free to express their pro-White feelings under the guise of scientific inquiry without fear of being called a neo-nazi.

    Now, I don’t want to be misunderstood. I don’t have an issue with someone being pro-White, just as I don’t care if someone is pro-Black. I like the fact that on the internet, we can express our feelings openly. Given the anonymous forum that we inhabit, I find it annoying when some try to pretend they are what they aren’t. HBD is a euphemism for pro-White. That only annoys me because the name is misleading.

  16. Oh, and Sagat,
    The only reason why I like fucking with OneSTDV-aside from “I can”-is to basically up end the apple cart he and others have tried to setup. And everytime they duck and dodge my direct questions, like they’re doing right now, only sharpens my sword and case.

    As for tracking, the issue ain’t racism, its WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO WITH THE KIDS WHEN THEY COME OUTTA SCHOOL? Have you seen my Mad Men/The Wire essay yet? If not please read it, then holla back.

    And that goes for Ms. Meep, too. :)

    The Obsidian

    • Carl
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 5:19 pm
    • Permalink

    Obsidian, your insecurity regarding IQ is amusing. The funniest thing is that it is clear from your writing that you are quite intelligent.

    You seriously mis-represent the HBD case. No HBDer believes that IQ is the end-all be-all of human worth, but it is true that it correlates pretty well with a whole gamut of positive attributes beyond just intelligence. There are certainly negative attributes to having too much intelligence. This is no secret to HBDers. The same can be said of height with respect to game. It is better to be taller than average, but there are obvious problems that occur when a man is too tall. There is such a thing as too smart in the same way there is too tall, but very few people have to deal with this, so why focus on it to the exclusion of all else?

    It seems that those who are part of a group with lower IQ cannot seem to realize that this only applies on a population basis. There are stupid white people (like some of my relatives) and smart black people (like yourself). Merely because the group averages are different makes no day-to-day difference to a member of either group. Individuals should be judged on their own traits whenever possible, but the attributes of each group clearly have some implications with regard to politics. For example, it is unfair to paint all white people as racists because blacks do not excel. The simpler explanation is that blacks are on average not as capable of excelling in the modern economy. That is no one’s fault, and it is absurd to blame it on white people.

    Just because you don’t want something to be true doesn’t make it untrue. Current society tries to blind us to the truth regarding women in the same way as it does in the differences between different groups of people.

  17. Hi Carl,
    C: Obsidian, your insecurity regarding IQ is amusing. The funniest thing is that it is clear from your writing that you are quite intelligent.

    O: Thanks-I think? LOL. Please point out, in detail, where I’m supposedly insecure about IQ? Thanks.

    C: You seriously mis-represent the HBD case.

    O: No, I do not. What I said is 100% in how they define HBD and how they approach things and define themselves and everyone else.

    C: No HBDer believes that IQ is the end-all be-all of human worth,

    O: Uh, YES THEY DO. Proof? Half Sigma, OneSTDV, The Inductivist, Audacious Epigone…shall I go on?

    C: but it is true that it correlates pretty well with a whole gamut of positive attributes beyond just intelligence.

    O: Nobody’s arguing that.

    C: There are certainly negative attributes to having too much intelligence. This is no secret to HBDers.

    O: By the way they act, one can’t tell.

    C: The same can be said of height with respect to game. It is better to be taller than average, but there are obvious problems that occur when a man is too tall.

    O: OK.

    C: There is such a thing as too smart in the same way there is too tall, but very few people have to deal with this, so why focus on it to the exclusion of all else?

    O: No one suggested such a thing, and I defy you to find the direct quote above in my post where I said such a thing.

    C: It seems that those who are part of a group with lower IQ cannot seem to realize that this only applies on a population basis. There are stupid white people (like some of my relatives) and smart black people (like yourself). Merely because the group averages are different makes no day-to-day difference to a member of either group. Individuals should be judged on their own traits whenever possible, but the attributes of each group clearly have some implications with regard to politics.

    O: Which complicates things considerably, because most HBDers talk a mean game about individuality, but in truth what they want is a *collective* solution to problems.

    C: For example, it is unfair to paint all white people as racists because blacks do not excel. The simpler explanation is that blacks are on average not as capable of excelling in the modern economy.

    O: Please list the Black people who’ve said this, and about what? I need specifics. Thanks.

    C: That is no one’s fault, and it is absurd to blame it on white people.

    O: OK…

    C: Just because you don’t want something to be true doesn’t make it untrue.

    O: Tru dat.

    C: Current society tries to blind us to the truth regarding women in the same way as it does in the differences between different groups of people.

    O: No, I’d say worse, because of the sheer numbers of White Women in all sectors of American public life versus Black folks.

    The Obsidian

    • Mack
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 6:02 pm
    • Permalink

    Yeah maybe the gay shit was for effect.

    But why don’t you tell us why the HBD-losers field tested, reality based SAT scores and what-not are wrong? Why do blacks in America fuck up so badly on just about every academic test thrown their way? Could it possibly be that the HBDers are right and blacks are just fucking stupid? Or is another answer the low scores are a result of the fucked up culture that many blacks cling to like a small pox-soaked blanket?

    The blacks-are-stupid route may be a tempting path for some HBD-losers to take. But I live in Europe and when I walk my kids to their very elite school in the morning I see several black fathers walking hand in hand with their kids to the same school. I see that in my son’s class the top scoring kid is a little black girl and I know the only way that is happening is that she is both intelligent and more importantly that her black parents are working their asses off at night with her on her homework. And when I drive past the local university I see lots of eager black men with back packs walking back to their apartments. Many of these guys come from the Congo and are happy as shit to be in a university laying the ground work for a better life for their eventual spouses and children. And when I go to work I see several talented black architects that I work with. This is a sight rarely seen in America where college is frowned upon by many blacks and their elders and so there is an absolute dearth of black architects as a result of this anti-scholastic “wisdom” that so many young blacks gobble up from their elders.

    And so I have no doubt that black scholastic scores in America would equal white scores if only black parents would invest in their kids to the same level white parents do.

    Blacks in Europe for the most part thrive (there are issues of course but nothing like the US). They don’t have the whiney negative attitude that their American cousins have. In fact they are highly embarrassed with your weak asses. See for the most part blacks in Europe INVEST in their children – and they invest in their society. Sure the brothas I see walking hand in hand with their bright little kids in the morning could have said fuck it and just devoted their lives to scoring pussy as is often recommended on this blog and in the Roissysphere in general. Sure he wouldn’t have to put up that bitchy wife and he could go out and get hammered instead of helping the snotty kids with Algebra in the evening. But am I sure his ass is much happier seeing his kids kick ass at one of the hardest schools around than he would be living alone in despair fucking the occasional cheap whore .

    And don’t give me any shit about blacks not having any historical baggage here like their American cousins have. The way the King of the Belgians, Leopold II treated the Congo when he ruled it makes American slavery look like a Club Med resort. When the Belgians got to the Congo they took whatever bush man they could find and turned his ass into a porter. His black ass got no food or drink–that was saved for the more valuable pack animals –and he was whipped into carrying that load until he collapsed and died, which usually took three days. Then the Belgians went to the nearest village and got some other bush brothas to take those bags off his lifeless body and carry them until they in their turn died from exhaustion. And so on and so on until a European-style infrastructure was built. The Belgians killed at least 12.5 million Congolese between 1890 and 1920. So blacks here have a whole lot to be bitter about yet they manage to put it behind them and get on building a better life for themselves and their children. When will blacks in America quit their grumbling and make the same choice? When will blacks finally start investing in their children and in the wider society? Will it take a black US President? Or is even that not enough?

    But from Obsidean we heard yesterday: “Wanna know why so many young Brothas scoff at college? Do you really, really wanna know?” and the implied answer was that these rocket scientists had figured out that was impossible for everyone to be doctors and lawyers so they just said fuck it instead. Of course our master of the crimson art approves of this loser attitude. But just imagine if a beta bitch said, “not every guy can score a ten, why should I bother learning Game to better my odds.” The comparison is obvious and until blacks get off their asses and start investing in their children and society they will continue to live in their Hobbesian state of nature that was very well described yesterday by Obsidian:

    Simon says that we have a human surplus of about 15-20 million people in the United States, much of them locked in urban ghettos like Baltimore’s Westside. And, since White folks of a certain class tends to act more along implied rather than implicit lines, the wink and nod way of dealing with this is by basically doing an Escape From New York move, leaving the wasteland to the Left Behind, and hopefully they’ll off themselves and save us the dirty work.

    9/11 is a joke – no one is going to bail out the black man except himself.

  18. Mack,
    You know, for a guy who doesn’t have a dog in the fight, you sure do sound quite impassioned, LOL. Lemme try to respond as best I can:

    1. Black parents, moms and dads both, walk their kids to school here, too. Now, to be sure, we could use a lot more of that, but it ain’t like its exactly a rare sighting or something. One can see this even in the grittiest of ghettos, although, again and for the record, we definitely need more of that.

    Second, I’ve never said that Brothas not going to school was a good thing, I was merely pointing out why they didn’t, and when one stops to think about it, you really can’t argue it. The point is that a lot of Brothas don’t see any realworld practicality to sitting up and enduring boring to tears shit for years only to have precious little to show for it. If they were White, there’d be real things done about that-oh snap, it IS happening right now to White boys!

    Third, the reason, well one of them anyway, as to why some Black folks act as they do, isn’t necessarily IQ or the lack thereof, but of another little word-FREEDOM. See, here in America, people have the right to be, or not to be, to be a success or to be a fuckup. Freedom ain’t always benign and good, and please don’t sit there and try to convince me that all White Americans are all responsible with their freedom either, because we all know, for a fact, that it ain’t true.

    As for Game and my take on it, you have really no idea what that is, since you obviously haven’t paid attention to the posts here or at Roissy’s, or at In Mala Fide’s. But like Aoefe and Ms. Walsh said, it should be fairly clear where I come down on the issue.

    Maybe instead of looking at Black USA through a keyhole, you might try taking a look at it through a door? Atta boy.

    The Obsidian

    • Phil
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 6:51 pm
    • Permalink

    And he continues to ignore my question.

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 7:06 pm
    • Permalink

    As for tracking, the issue ain’t racism, its WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO WITH THE KIDS WHEN THEY COME OUTTA SCHOOL? Have you seen my Mad Men/The Wire essay yet? If not please read it, then holla back.

    The question is not what are WE going to do with them; it’s what are THEY going to do with themselves. I think that’s the fundamental flaw in your thinking. I checked out your Wire essay and I think you are overly pessimistic though some of your points are spot on.

    I also come from a blue collar background myself. Back when I was just a teenager I had a job unloading freight and it was a bitch. I hated that job and one day I was struck with a thought. If they trained a bunch of chimps to do this work, PETA and all the other animal rights groups would be protesting at the cruel treatment of these animals. Now why the fuck was I doing the work that wasn’t even good enough for a chimp? There were guys working with me in their 40s; some even in their 60s. Screw that! It took me years but I got out of that position in life by busting my ass and making a name for myself.

    As for kids trained in the trades. Some will get a job straight out of HS and make good money. Some of those will take their experience and start their own business and hire other kids getting out of school. Some won’t do shit. That’s life though. You work hard or you starve. You apply yourself or you fail. It’s true some have it easier than others. So what? Obstacles are for overcoming; they aren’t a place to sit your lazy ass next to for shade.

    • meep
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 7:21 pm
    • Permalink

    I think much of high school is just babysitting teens, whereas in other eras these kids would be put to productive labor via apprenticeships [ideally].

    Related: Mike Rowe talking about the dignity of work [link through my blog] – http://meep.livejournal.com/1792573.html

  19. LOL, I think you got me mixed up with someone else, Sagat. LOL.

    Here in Philly, the former head of the School Reform Comission went on record as saying that he can get a (generally Black) kid into Harvard than he could into the local Labor Unions.

    Now, just think about that statement for a second.

    You and I both know that the vast majority of ANY school population, be it Princeton or the inner city public school, won’t be starting their own businesses. So let’s cut the crap.

    The point is that without jobs to go to, in this case trades, all the tracking in the world won’t mean squat, and you know this, Man! And while my “Wire” essay might have been pessimistic, it is the truth. Straight up.

    Go back and please read it again. It’s not about you saying “the hell with this!”, its about stopping the hate and vitriol on the people WE NEED to keep this Mutha called the United States of America afloat, so professional bullshitters with hands as soft as the Palmolive Lady can pretend that what their doing really makes a difference. Like I said, the next time a bridge collapses or, God forbid, YOUR kid keels over from ingesting an E-Coli Burger, maybe Don Draper of some such can fix it.

    Holla back…

    The Obsidian

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 8:27 pm
    • Permalink

    Obsidian,

    Honestly, I don’t know what point you are trying to make here. I’m not sure of your depth of understanding of economic issues, so I don’t really want to go into detail about something you may already know. Like I said, I agree with many of the points that you made. I don’t see why you have issues with a vocational tract. It’s better than what we have now. Your main issue of contention seems to be that we are fucked, so why bother? Well, maybe we are screwed. Maybe all the kids should quit school now, sharpen their machetes and take up hand to hand combat training. I doubt that’s a good model for economic success though. Probably better to train kids at making things than prepare for armageddon.

    You seem to have a skewed view of who has value in society. I like to think that I have some importance in my job, but I know I’m no captain of industry or great inventor. If the planet killing comet is on its way, they aren’t going to invite me or you into the underground tunnels to repopulate humanity. We’re gonna get incinerated with the rest of the pawns. Maybe you and I can share a warm embrace before our souls are sent into the unknown.

    So who’s important? Kids with no interest in academics whose sole goal in life is playing Xbox and getting laid? Hell no. The best we can do for them is find them something to do so they can be productive. If they don’t make good with the gifts they were given then to hell with them. What else do you expect out of people? And yes, most people don’t start up businesses. Thank god for those that do though. Or you and I would be outta work.

    • Grim
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 8:49 pm
    • Permalink

    The oddest thing I have found about the “really smart guy” Half Sigma is how dumb he is. The dude has zero common sense and is utterly convinced about how awesome he is.

    On the other hand I get why a lot of guys are pissed off at so called NAMs. Most of it has to do with the work place. Affirmative action pisses a lot of Whites and Asians off(Asians generally take the brunt of the discrimination). This is a mostly white collar jobs issue and white collar is where HBDers tend to cluster. There are a lot abuses where minorities are promoted, protected, and allowed to harass other employees strictly because of their race. And many take advantage of this setup (whites and Asians would jump to do the same if the wind was blowing the other way). I think that HBDers tend to blame the people playing the system more than the system itself.

  20. Sagat,
    That’s funny, you’re the only one thus far that doesn’t see the point I was making w/my “Wire” essay. Go figure.

    Grim, my response to those in the White Collar field who are mad at Black folks getting ahead is…take it up with the White folks who like the idea that Black folks shot get some dap for all the shit we’ve had to shovel in this country, for centuries, OK? They should have straightened all this out at the end of the Civil War in the first place, then we wouldn’t have to be going thru all this stuff. *shrugs*

    The Obsidian

    • dragnet
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 9:13 pm
    • Permalink

    Wow…a lot has been said since I was last here.

    RE: Mack’s last point. It can’t be disputed that blacks in Europe tend to outperform blacks here—but the same is true of white Europeans vs. white Americans, you have to look at the picture in aggregate.

    European countries have broad and deep social safety systems (years of maternity leave, universal healthcare, gov’t sponsored daycare, etc) that provide the flexibility for families to invest fully in their children and fully in jobs, knowing that the gov’t has taken steps to at least ameliorate some of the more vicious social ills. The importance of this cannot be overestimated. It’s much easier to not become demoralized and to think you always have a chance to succeed and to invest fully in the development of your children, if you can encounter a rough time, lose your job in a bad economy or one of your children/loved ones gets sick—and not be financially destroyed because of it. You cannot plausibly claim that in America, and it absolutely affects the choices people make.

    This is really why were are at a pivotal point in American political history, and why I believe American liberalism has a powerful and unique calling at this moment. At it’s core, the driving idea of American liberalism isn’t the abrogation of personal responsibility—far from it. It is simply the idea that in the interests of the vitality of the nation and it’s citizens, gov’t has *some* role to play in alleviating the most serious social ills. The only remaining debate is how limited that role is—the idea that there is no role at all to be played by gov’t (aka, conservatism) has largely fallen into discredit, if only due to the actions of the Repbulican Party and its fellow travelers over the previous 8 years.

    I know I’m probably going to take heat for this post, but bring it on.

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 9:42 pm
    • Permalink

    Obsidian,

    No, I got the point about your Wire essay. I was referring to the issue you raised with regard to the discussion of a vocational tract option in American public schools. You didn’t think it was a good idea and then pointed to your essay. You made the point about “stopping the hate and vitriol against the people we NEED” but that’s what I took issue with. As you clearly stated in your essay, we don’t really need blue collar people. They’re expendable and easily replaced. Sucks I know, but that’s the truth and you stated it yourself.

    This goes back to the topic of this blog posting. It’s one of the reasons that “HBDers” go on and on about “NAMs”. The movers and shakers of society are the high IQ types. The inventors, entrepreneurs, investors and visionaries keep this ship moving. The rest are just plankton enjoying the ride. You know this, so I don’t understand your opposition to what I’m saying. That’s why I said I don’t get the point that you’re making. Maybe I should just be more clear and say I don’t agree.

  21. Dragnet,
    Again, very well put points. I think that it’s pretty clear by now that Capitalism with no checks on it, running amok, is NOT the way to go, and anyone who tries to make a cogent argument that it does really needs their head examined. And this is coming from a Conservative, Free Marketeer. The system NEEDS controls, it’s really as simple as that.

    But, I fear that it may be too little, too late. This thing has been brewing a lot longer than the GWB years, Dragnet. More like the past generation, at least. And Clinton had his hands in this, too – just like it was Obama who did the lion’s share of the bailing out of Wall Street.

    One final point. Remember the Mike Wallace special that introduced the country to the NOI and Malcolm in particular? It was called The Hate That Hate Produced? Well, in the urban ghettos, the dog eat dog mentality that has been the order of the day for the past generation, and we have bred some serious SOBs, Man. I think you know what I mean. If you’re anything like me, you’ve seen them, firsthand.

    The system is broken, and I don’t we have enough duct tape and krazy glue to put it back together, quite honestly. I know you work in the financial world, and so it’s in your interest to have at least some faith in what you’re doing and fwiw, I respect that. But for my part, I just see that we’ve hollowed too much of who and what we are to ever turn the tide. We’re in free fall, and the best we can do is to maange the decline.

    The Obsidian

  22. Sagat,
    OK. It’s like this:

    Ever heard of the joke about the different body parts arguing over which was the most important organ? The brain, the liver, the eyes, the feet, all of them were bickering about how and why they were most important.

    Then, the anus chimed in. He simply said that if he shutdown, everybody was fucked. And to demonstrate the point, up closed the sphincter.

    It was NOT pretty.

    Now, I know you’re a pretty smart guy. So I think you get what I’m saying here. When we make it our business to kick dirt on those we rely upon to do the dirty work for us, nbot only are we cutting off our nose to spite our face, but the very same monster that we unleashed will soon be coming for us, just like the Blob? Come on Sagat, I know you see what I’m saying here. Even if you don’t agree.

    The Obsidian

  23. Oh, and Sagat,

    Please read what I said again. I didn’t say that we don’t need Blue Collar people – I said that we have a MALE SURPLUS, and it cuts accross the Collar line. Hence why the socalled professional class plays their musical chairs routine, hopping from job to job every other year or so.

    Just wanted to put that in.

    The Obsidian

  24. Obsidian, while I respect and identify with the HBDsphere, the issues you point out in this post are ones that seriously need to be addressed.

    My opinion of most HBD bloggers is not so much that they are authentically bigoted against blacks is that they have had little if any upfront interaction with them. It’s the Allegory of the Cave – none of them have seen anything more then the shadows of what black people are like. This, combined with the fact that most of them are on the spectrum (as is typical of the high-IQ), leads to them forming their opinions solely on statistics and the like. As I once wrote about the quantbloggers (who are basically a subset of the HBDsphere), they are people who think reality can be reduced to numbers on an Excel spreadsheet.

    Hard data has its relevance, and a lot of what HBD bloggers say is correct and deserves to be aired. But it wouldn’t kill them to step outside the bubble once and a while. Given that I’ve spent a fair portion of my life interacting with people from all walks of life, including blacks, I have serious problems with this intellectual myopia on the HBDsphere’s part.

    • Phil
    • Posted November 14, 2009 at 11:47 pm
    • Permalink

    Keep ignoring my question.

    How do you know, based on anonymous internet comments, that these guys are anti-social, nerds in real life? That they’re a bunch of losers based off what they say online?

    Since there is such significant overlap between the Gamesphere and the HBDsphere, isn’t it reasonable to assume many HBD people use Game? Why do you assume they’re all loveless losers?

    I think you do this because it helps you dismiss everything they say as the whining of biased losers.

    • Joe
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 2:20 am
    • Permalink

    How do you know, based on anonymous internet comments, that these guys are anti-social, nerds in real life? That they’re a bunch of losers based off what they say online?

    It’s totally possible to tell if someone is a loser by their anonymous comments online. By how they describe themselves, the language they use, their online behavior…if you think it’s not possible then go to a message board for rabid fans of Twilight movies and novels or a message board for avid Dungeons and Dragons gamers and tell me if you still think it’s not possible to tell if someone is a loser by their anonymous comments. HBD bloggers and commenters, much like D&D gamers, reek of loserness. Don’t take it personal, but it’s true.

    A great site for really driving it home is feministx’s blog, when you read the hbd commenters attempt to flirt with her. my favorite post of hers is one where she said “hey, let’s guess each other’s IQs” and all the HBDers were playing along. Really a laughably bad display of social ineptness.

    • Mack
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 5:18 am
    • Permalink

    I was merely pointing out why they didn’t, and when one stops to think about it, you really can’t argue it. The point is that a lot of Brothas don’t see any realworld practicality to sitting up and enduring boring to tears shit for years only to have precious little to show for it.

    Is this one of your field tested and validated observations? Boring to tears shit? Project much? Going to university can be many things but boring is not one of them. But where did you come up with this “field tested” opinion? Have you sat through years of boring lectures? I’m guessing not because with your sharp mind you would have immediately engaged with your professors and made it a better experience for everyone. But instead your prejudice, fear, and anger hold your natural talent back.

    And are you actually questioning the real world practicality of education? When was the last time you compared salaries or unemployment rates for graduates of college vs. high school or less? There is no doubt in the current Great Recession there is nowhere to hide even for many white collar types but on aggregate they are much much better off than people rolling through life sporting high school or less.

    But this blog is primarily focused on evo psych and Game so why don’t we examine the wisdom of higher education through that lens. The science is unanimous. Please check out “The Evolution of Sexual Attraction: Evaluation Mechanisms in Women” by Bruce J. Ellis. Study after study shows that women select the men they fuck primarily on social status. He describes a study where he mixes men of six different levels of attraction with three levels of occupational and income. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that the women’s pussies got wet for men with higher social status. Even a really good looking guy when presented in a Burger King uniform tended to underperform the mediocre looking professionals. But of course this is not an absolute; it is possible on the very extremes to have omega professionals who are so clueless that women will have nothing to do with them and burger flippers with so much Game that some women are into them, but over the long run social status is the strongest determinant of sexual success.

    To quote:
    Townsend found that women were significantly more willing to engage in liaisons with the high-status / homely males than with either the medium- or low-status / handsome males at all six levels of intimacy and marital potential. (In contrast, male subjects always preferred handsome females over homely females, regardless of costume, ascribed occupational status, or type of relationship proposed.)

    So by encourgaging the young Brothas to embrace their lowly social status you are in fact depriving them of any chance of fucking good looking or high status women.

    Now Game will help them a bit. I am interested in military strategy and a good analogy is that Game functions much like morale does in military thought while social status is comparable to fire power. The military potential of a unit is fire power multiplied by morale. The pussy scoring potential of a player is social status multiplied by game. This shows why it is possible for a weaker army to beat a stronger opponent – low vs. high morale makes the difference. While morale truly is a vital quality, who in their right mind would tell an army not to acquire as much fire power as possible? Morale as well as Game has its limits. A unit armed with BB guns with super high morale will never beat a Panzer division sporting even very low morale. Young players should be encouraged to grab as much social status fire power as possible – not just for scoring pussy but for the good of society and their eventual children as well. Obsidian you do a great disservice to many Americans by encouraging them to avoid years of “Boring to tears shit”.

    Dragnet raises some important points. It is true that both blacks and whites do better in Europe due to the excellent social safety nets. Sadly as the incompetence of the first year of Obama shows all too well, these kind of social benefits will never come to America. Obama — with Wall Street’s huge cock firmly wedged down his throat — is busy on social issues running out the clock by playing a four corners offense. If he continues his current trajectory of wussy political beta-ness, after his four years are up (assuming he isn’t impeached before then for gross negligence) he will be in a tight race with George W Bush for the worst President ever.

    But I also have to admit that Obsidian’s general pessimism is justified in many ways. I lived in the ghettos of East Oakland for several years and I know what it is like all too well. The best way I can describe it is that poor blacks are like the angry cheating wife and the American political system is like a wussy beta cuckold. Throwing more social programs at angry blacks is not going to bring them back into the fold – just like a beta showering a cheating wife with expensive gifts is not going to make her stop seeking Alpha cock on the side. The more they are given the more they despise the desperate beta wimps.

    Sadly the beta American political system is on its last days. To be sure this is not the fault of blacks. When the organism has a raging case of Wall Street brain cancer, the enflamed appendix that represents the black problem is minor in comparison.

    It is just a matter of time before the body politic of the US turns its back on dysfunctional Beta democracy eagerly opens its legs wide to firm Alpha dictatorship. And one of the first things this Alpha stud is going to do after taking power is to look over his account books. Like any CEO taking over a failing company he is going to look to see which departments of society are assets; which groups are taking care of their kids; getting educations; working hard, paying taxes, and which groups are net losses – liabilities –the unproductive members of society. And this is where it is going to get real ugly for 50-60% of blacks as well as 20-30% of whites. Like any sharp businessman, our Alpha dictator is definitely going to want to liquidate his liabilities and he’s not going to have any pussy beta qualms about the methods he uses to accomplish this task.

    I tend to agree with Obsidian that the shit ain’t gonna get better anytime soon, certainly not under a beta democracy. But I gotta say that the time is getting closer to the day when that aforementioned Alpha stud comes to political power. And believe you me the slacking Brothas (and Whiteys of course too) are gonna have to work it out in record time to avoid being liquidated in whatever Alpha fashion is required. It ain’t gonna be pretty. But on the other hand historically blacks have thrived in Alpha dominated institutions like the military and organized sports so maybe things will go better for them under the iron fist of an Alpha stud.

    • PA
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 8:44 am
    • Permalink

    ———————
    under the iron fist of an Alpha stud.

    Who would have thought Obsidian had a fanbase in the gay community.
    ———————

  25. Great posting. I’m trying to come up with something to take issue with you on, and nothing’s occurring to me.

    • Wocka
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 10:39 am
    • Permalink

    O,
    I commend you for standing up for us minorities. Many Thanks.

    And Mack,
    That’s quite a stick you’ve got up your butt. You’re European right? I think you don’t really understand how things work over here.

    • DADT
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 10:43 am
    • Permalink

    HBD is the white man’s passive/aggressive expression of his deep-seated envy of black male sexual prowess.

    Ladies – ever wanna make a group of men start feeling REALLY uncomfortable. Talk about black men. Just watch the reactions on their faces. It’s hilarious.

    • Mack
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 11:20 am
    • Permalink

    Wocka,

    Naw I’m American and I have a lot of experience on the subject matter. I decided ten years ago I didn’t want my kids growing up in the shit hole America was becoming so I got the hell out.

    But please let me know where you disagree with me. There is admittedly a lot of sound and fury in my posts but at the end of the day the opinions are not that controversial.

    1. Blacks have the same intelligence potential as whites

    2. Blacks will not score as well on scholastic tests until black parents (particularly fathers) invest in their children to similar levels as whites.

    3. Young black men should be encouraged to pursue higher education.

    4. Obama has Wall Street cock wedged in his throat.

    5. Europeans do better because of their social saftey nets.

    6. Not that Obama could deliver them anyway but more social programs will not convince poor blacks to get with the program (I could be wrong on this one).

    7. The Brothas are not going to work it out until there is radical regime change in the US (again I hope I’m wrong).

    Please educate me as to where I am missing the boat.

  26. Hi Mack,
    Replies below:

    M: “I was merely pointing out why they didn’t, and when one stops to think about it, you really can’t argue it. The point is that a lot of Brothas don’t see any realworld practicality to sitting up and enduring boring to tears shit for years only to have precious little to show for it.”

    Is this one of your field tested and validated observations? Boring to tears shit? Project much? Going to university can be many things but boring is not one of them. But where did you come up with this “field tested” opinion? Have you sat through years of boring lectures? I’m guessing not because with your sharp mind you would have immediately engaged with your professors and made it a better experience for everyone. But instead your prejudice, fear, and anger hold your natural talent back.

    O: Why thank you – I think? LOL. Actually Mack, I’m much more qualified to speak on this matter a lot more than you, given that I am a Black Male and have lived among them all my life, have tasted the crappy public school system firsthand, and have taught at the university level for more than five years. I got the chance to see how the academic sausage was made, and trust me when I tell you, it is not pretty. Moreover, Black Males aren’t the only ones who find school an increasingly big waste of time – more and more White, and even Asian Males are too.

    And, trust me when I tell ya, alot of those uni lectures ARE boring. ;)

    M: And are you actually questioning the real world practicality of education? When was the last time you compared salaries or unemployment rates for graduates of college vs. high school or less? There is no doubt in the current Great Recession there is nowhere to hide even for many white collar types but on aggregate they are much much better off than people rolling through life sporting high school or less.

    O: Yes, I do, and I’m not the only one – ever heard of Charles Murray? In more recent years he’s been taking up the banner that everyone doesn’t need to go to college to make a good living. Nor is the university better served by being choked with people who in all fairness really don’t belong there in the first placve, and it ain’t just “NAMs” – a whole lotta White folks don’t belong there, either. Look him up.

    M: But this blog is primarily focused on evo psych and Game so why don’t we examine the wisdom of higher education through that lens. The science is unanimous. Please check out “The Evolution of Sexual Attraction: Evaluation Mechanisms in Women” by Bruce J. Ellis. Study after study shows that women select the men they fuck primarily on social status. He describes a study where he mixes men of six different levels of attraction with three levels of occupational and income. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that the women’s pussies got wet for men with higher social status. Even a really good looking guy when presented in a Burger King uniform tended to underperform the mediocre looking professionals. But of course this is not an absolute; it is possible on the very extremes to have omega professionals who are so clueless that women will have nothing to do with them and burger flippers with so much Game that some women are into them, but over the long run social status is the strongest determinant of sexual success.

    O: Yes, I’m familiar with said study, and as you rightly point out, this is among other things, a Game blog – so I will kindly refer to my post earlier this week, The Realworld Value of GAME, where I quote Roissy, Ferdinand Bardamu and The Fifth Horseman at length. All of them said that not was having tight Game essential for Today’s Man, but that it trumps having a degree or a high paying job. And yea, there are field tested studies to prove it. Mystery was pulling 8s, 9s and Dimes consistently while still living at home with Momma. Style was doing the same AFTER Game, than before it – and he was and is a noted NYT writer and author.

    So…you were saying? :)

    M: So by encourgaging the young Brothas to embrace their lowly social status you are in fact depriving them of any chance of fucking good looking or high status women.

    O: I did? Please show me that direct quote? Thanks. And while you’re finding that quote, please allow me to quote that great philosopher Jay-Z”:

    “I got 99 problems, but a Bitch ain’t one”…

    M: Now Game will help them a bit. I am interested in military strategy and a good analogy is that Game functions much like morale does in military thought while social status is comparable to fire power. The military potential of a unit is fire power multiplied by morale. The pussy scoring potential of a player is social status multiplied by game. This shows why it is possible for a weaker army to beat a stronger opponent – low vs. high morale makes the difference. While morale truly is a vital quality, who in their right mind would tell an army not to acquire as much fire power as possible? Morale as well as Game has its limits. A unit armed with BB guns with super high morale will never beat a Panzer division sporting even very low morale. Young players should be encouraged to grab as much social status fire power as possible – not just for scoring pussy but for the good of society and their eventual children as well. Obsidian you do a great disservice to many Americans by encouraging them to avoid years of “Boring to tears shit”.

    O: Again – please get me the direct quote by me where I supposedly say this? And, isn’t history replete with examples of outmanned, outgunned, ragtag armies who won out over mjuch more powerful ones? Ever heard of that flick 300? What about the American Revolution? Or the Taliban, and before them, the Mujahideen? Or the Viet Cong?

    Ever read Niccolo Machiavelli’s The Prince? Rife with politics, war strategy and GAME. And again – please review my post The Realworld Value of GAME. And holla back. :)

    M: Dragnet raises some important points. It is true that both blacks and whites do better in Europe due to the excellent social safety nets. Sadly as the incompetence of the first year of Obama shows all too well, these kind of social benefits will never come to America. Obama — with Wall Street’s huge cock firmly wedged down his throat — is busy on social issues running out the clock by playing a four corners offense. If he continues his current trajectory of wussy political beta-ness, after his four years are up (assuming he isn’t impeached before then for gross negligence) he will be in a tight race with George W Bush for the worst President ever.

    O: OK…

    M: But I also have to admit that Obsidian’s general pessimism is justified in many ways. I lived in the ghettos of East Oakland for several years and I know what it is like all too well. The best way I can describe it is that poor blacks are like the angry cheating wife and the American political system is like a wussy beta cuckold. Throwing more social programs at angry blacks is not going to bring them back into the fold – just like a beta showering a cheating wife with expensive gifts is not going to make her stop seeking Alpha cock on the side. The more they are given the more they despise the desperate beta wimps.

    O: Interesting field-tested analysis. I didn’t know you were a fan of Gunnar Myrdal.

    M: Sadly the beta American political system is on its last days. To be sure this is not the fault of blacks. When the organism has a raging case of Wall Street brain cancer, the enflamed appendix that represents the black problem is minor in comparison.

    O: OK…

    M: It is just a matter of time before the body politic of the US turns its back on dysfunctional Beta democracy eagerly opens its legs wide to firm Alpha dictatorship. And one of the first things this Alpha stud is going to do after taking power is to look over his account books. Like any CEO taking over a failing company he is going to look to see which departments of society are assets; which groups are taking care of their kids; getting educations; working hard, paying taxes, and which groups are net losses – liabilities –the unproductive members of society. And this is where it is going to get real ugly for 50-60% of blacks as well as 20-30% of whites. Like any sharp businessman, our Alpha dictator is definitely going to want to liquidate his liabilities and he’s not going to have any pussy beta qualms about the methods he uses to accomplish this task.

    O: Trust me, we Black folk will be alright. We’ve endured a heck of lot worse.

    M: I tend to agree with Obsidian that the shit ain’t gonna get better anytime soon, certainly not under a beta democracy. But I gotta say that the time is getting closer to the day when that aforementioned Alpha stud comes to political power. And believe you me the slacking Brothas (and Whiteys of course too) are gonna have to work it out in record time to avoid being liquidated in whatever Alpha fashion is required. It ain’t gonna be pretty. But on the other hand historically blacks have thrived in Alpha dominated institutions like the military and organized sports so maybe things will go better for them under the iron fist of an Alpha stud.

    O: Well, that’s the rumor…

    PA: “under the iron fist of an Alpha stud.”

    Who would have thought Obsidian had a fanbase in the gay community.

    O: Indeed…who knew?

    The Obsidian

    • meep
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 11:49 am
    • Permalink

    Obsidian is right re: education system in U.S. being off-base for lots of people.

    People keep fixating on racial categories, but as my experience is with a wide swath of the “white community”, I’m pretty familiar with the situation here. We’ve got teen pregnancies in the extended family [I wouldn't be a step-grandma at my age if that weren't the case] as well as high school dropouts… this ain’t just a “black thing”.

    I think there’s a problem in thinking “college degree = mo’ money!” though. Is that degree in women’s studies really going to get a woman more $$ than actually working in sales and getting more skills? A lot of people are coming out with worthless degrees and loads of debt. And then the college degrees that do have some sort of value are too difficult for most people [no matter race or sex] — that’s how they’ve retained their value.

    Then what if you go to college and can’t get any degree? That the worst! You’ve got no degree, and you’ve got the debt!

    People keep confusing the cause and effect with college degrees. Before the current “college for all!” push, you could work your way up ranks without college degrees – my aunt and my grandfather went very far at IBM without college degrees. My aunt ended up heading a division, and my grandfather ended up a branch manager – my aunt had started out at IBM as a secretary, and my grandfather as a salesman. Neither of those positions required [nor should require today] degrees.

    • Wocka
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 12:42 pm
    • Permalink

    Great points by Meep, (that’s what I was gonna say! )

    Well anyway, Mack. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.

    But you’re vastly overrating higher education and underrating the momentum of institutionalized racism that people of color have faced in this country.

    Back to college, yes it can and will help in many cases. But many people in this country under the age of 40 are waking up to harsh reality that the college degree wasn’t ticket to upward mobility that this society said it would be.

    College is a gigantic business, I haven’t studied enough on the subject, so I’m not sure when it was decided that a degree was necessity. But when it was decided that a degree was important, to say that it has been a business boon to many is an understatement.

    The facts are out there plain as day. Most of todays top earners have either graduated from a small % of elite schools (or famously dropped out those elite schools) The vast majority of the population goes to school and end up working in something that they didn’t study and have a ton debt to show for it.

    I could go on stating the obvious of what happens next…

    • Gx1080
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 1:14 pm
    • Permalink

    What creeps me out is that if it wasn’t for my “Do not take shit of no one” policy (or an excess of testosterone that made that policy develop fast) I would have ended just like them: A resentful little fuck that taked it way too many times in the ass and now lashes against everyone different from the solace of his cave.

    Minorities at the blame of all the problems in the West? BOLLOCKS. Just Blacks and Hispanics are completely different groups of each other, and given the diferent history of each country you can’t compare a Guatemalan with a Puerto Rican, for example.

    Is absolutely not possible that all that different people have blame on the fall of the West. The funny part is that HBDs aren’t jealous and resentful of real Blacks, they are jelaous and resentful of their own fantasies of Blacks that have little to do with reality.

    About “Boring to tears shit”, I also cannot see the value of being a factory guy, just a cog in a machine with a braindead job that a trained monkey can do.

    “professional bullshitters with hands as soft as the Palmolive Lady”(lol), trust me, white collar guys hate them as much as you do, and one of the reasons that I stopped reading Men’s Health is that they encouraged that and layed down all the ways to do it.

    About White-collar guys, have you seen a pit like Costumer Service or Software development? I have, and in the most unrealistic companies (the soon to be bankrupt), you could say tha those guys LIVE in those pits.

    Another point, EVERYBODY wants a safe spot when they can weather the storm that is caled today’s economy, but that’s hard to do when companies do layoffs for covering the failures in front of the holy and sacred Wall Street stock holders, instead of actually fixing the issues that caused the problem in the first place.

    An unlimited supply of starry-eyed college graduates that they can squeeze for all they worth and then discard like used condoms helps in that, Case in Point: Electronic Arts.

    @DADT

    Males feel unconfortable in general when women talk about other males that aren’t themselves, Black or not.

    • hello
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 2:37 pm
    • Permalink

    Great post, Obsidian, and I’m glad to have found your blog! *hug* I once saw someone on Sailer’s site say that black IQs could raise if black women chose high IQ Asian men to father their children. Nothing against black women and Asian men hooking up, but this commenter spoke as though most women of any race sit down and make a list of mental qualities they want in their kids and shop for sperm in a rational, detached manner. If he thinks that a large number of ordinary women can be persuaded to do that absent significant financial rewards it’s no wonder he has trouble attracting women. Yeah, a lot of these guys have little if any extended experience with blacks and Hispanics yet nonetheless do not seem curious about them and have little intention of getting off the computer and extending into the wider world. Couldn’t hurt.

    • Sagat
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 4:56 pm
    • Permalink

    Obsidian,

    You seem to have a romantic notion of the working class. Part of the engine that drives capitalism is greed; it’s coveting other people’s shit. Yeah, people do look down on fruit pickers and janitors and garbage men. That’s the way it works. Who actually enjoys doing crap work? I didn’t. I suspect you didn’t as well. Everyone want to move up. Problem is, many of the folks on the lower rung have limited options and can either work those soul sucking jobs or collect welfare. High school now is just college prep work. A good percentage of kids don’t need college and should be focusing on more practical skills, like how to manage their money. The issue with there being no jobs for them is a bit off topic from that general point. I agree that the economy is collapsing because we’ve had a terrible economic model for some time. It really is just a distraction to even bring that up when talking about schooling though. You could use that same argument to say that high school altogether is futile.

    I should have made the distinction between unskilled work and skilled work. Of course not all blue collar workers are replaceable; I wasn’t clear about my point. Having skills makes the difference. While unskilled illegals can come in and replace unskilled Americans, they can’t fill all the skilled jobs. We still need electricians and plumbers and HVAC installers. These are jobs that can’t be outsourced.

    But yes, some workers are expendable and this is part of the reason unions came into power. You have a certain perspective because you are up in Philly. I live in the South and the economy was booming down here for a long time, because unions aren’t really a factor down here. Look at where all the new auto plants are at. There down here.

    The issues with the economy stem from the oligarchs in power. We don’t have a government for the people, by the people any more. Trade laws are made to benefit the elite, not the common man. It’s not so much a problem with capitalism; it’s problem with the elite pissing on the citizens of this country.

    Anyway, my whole point was, there’s nothing wrong with teaching kids how to work with their hands. It’s better than them being HS school dropouts. The jobs will come when and if the economy picks up. That’s a big IF and it depends on the choices the politicians make. I’m not counting on them to do the right thing, but we should be prepared just in case.

    • Altan
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 5:49 pm
    • Permalink

    I disagree with the old fashioned IQ concept. Intelligence is subjective, like HBDs being smarter at traditional brainy things, the players are smarter at analyzing female psychology and using it to their advantage. Both sides are intelligent in their own context.

    • Altan
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 5:57 pm
    • Permalink

    Moreover, even HBDs tend to be more “brainy”, they can be argued to get lower in one of the kinds of intelligence by age. The reason is that most of the stuff happening around in the world, including exclusively male to male relations, have a lot of basis on the sexual drives. Not having a grasp how those mechanisms work will also lower a man’s understanding of the world

    • DADT
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 7:45 pm
    • Permalink

    Obs, I’d like to know what you think of Aleksyss K Tylor’s show “Vagina Power” which you can view on youtube. She addresses a lot of issues in the black community.

    • DADT
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 7:49 pm
    • Permalink

    GX1080: “Males feel unconfortable in general when women talk about other males that aren’t themselves, Black or not”.

    I wondered about this. Are men more insecure in this regard than women? Some women get furious and seethe with envy just at the mere mention of another woman.

    I thought men were more detached in that regard. Maybe they just hide it better?

    • Absinthe
    • Posted November 15, 2009 at 11:42 pm
    • Permalink

    Excellent post Obsidian, one of your best yet. I enjoyed your comments at Roissy’s and am glad to have found your blog. I like the look of the blog, clean, stark, minimalist, to the point.

    • Gx1080
    • Posted November 16, 2009 at 5:13 pm
    • Permalink

    @DADT

    Thought about it and it’s simple: Even an omega male subconciously knows that when a woman is talking about other males in his presence in anything else that a passing tone, bitching included is because she has the hots with him.

    Is basic instinct. After all, if she weren’t on him, why speak about him? You never see a women talking much about her beta lapdog (Besides casual mockery, of course).

    • Abelard Lindsey
    • Posted November 16, 2009 at 7:20 pm
    • Permalink

    Much of HBD on the internet seems to be an up to date version of “white man’s burden”.

    • Abelard Lindsey
    • Posted November 16, 2009 at 10:27 pm
    • Permalink

    Most of the HBD people are white nationalists who use HBD as argument for why they should have special status in this society. However, there are two HBD bloggers who seem to rise above this and who cite detailed analysis in their blogging. One is the one and only Razib (www.gnxp.com) who is heads and tails above the rest of the HBD people. The other is Agnostic, who is also quite good, but often veers off on his obsession with teenage girls. These two blogs (especially gene expression) are worth following. The rest are dressed up white nationalism.

  27. I responded to this over at my blog. Enjoy!

    • Abelard Lindsey
    • Posted November 17, 2009 at 2:45 pm
    • Permalink

    Our host asks:

    then why is it that China is the social, political and economic basketcase it is today? Why is corruption seemingly associated with being Asian? Why is that the last two remaining self-identified Communist countries today, Asian? Moreover, why hasn’t any advanced Asian country-China, Japan, South Korea-made any important discoveries or made groundbreaking inventions?

    I will take a stab at this. The East Asians have high IQ’s, but tend to be of a collectivist bent (does collectivism correlate with IQ? A discussion for another time). In addition, contrary to popular myth, perpetuated by our esteemed host here, the East Asians do invent many things. All of the foundational inventions such as compass, printing press, gun power. etc, that drove the European enlightment were invented in China a good 500-1000 year prior to Europe. The problem is that the Chinese also invented bureaucracy before anyone else did either, and that it was their bureaucracy that inhibited the dissemination of their inventions, unlike the situation in Europe 500 years later. It is the nature of bureaucracy to resent and inhibit innovation. Because innovation flattens the social pyramid, where upon it rebuilds itself with new people in charge. Do realize that unlike unified China, Europe was broken up into competitive kingdoms and empires. This competitive landscape was made more competitive by the black death in 1338-1341, which killed 30-50% of Europe’s population. Plague fosters innovation by destroying existing social hierarchy and, thus, creating opportunities for social mobility where none existed before. This is the reason why Europe innovated and prospered whereas East Asia stagnated from about 1400 on.

    Today, East Asia is resurgent, and they can certainly innovate. Patent applications in areas of biotechnology and nanotechnology are growing more rapidly in the East Asian countries as compared to the West. I consider the notion that East Asians are incapable of innovation as both parochial and a rather dangerous delusion.

    Obsidian,

    I agree with the rest of your post. However, please do not promulgate the ugly canard that the East Asians not being able to innovate. This canard reinforces the complacency to relax and do nothing in our own society. This complacency only creates more unnecessary damage in our own society.

    • Abelard Lindsey
    • Posted November 17, 2009 at 2:47 pm
    • Permalink

    D_FENS!

    Have you had any encounters with officer-esses lately?

  28. This has to be one of the fastest blogs to become popular.

    • DADT
    • Posted November 19, 2009 at 11:01 am
    • Permalink

    “@DADT

    Thought about it and it’s simple: Even an omega male subconciously knows that when a woman is talking about other males in his presence in anything else that a passing tone, bitching included is because she has the hots with him.”

    GX1080, same goes for women. So when are you guys gonna stop talking about other women in front of us?

    • PissedOffChinaman
    • Posted November 20, 2009 at 3:31 pm
    • Permalink

    Obsidian dude, you are wasting a lot of words essentially saying the following:

    The HBDosphere is made up of lonely, white, underachieving, sexually frustrated losers who use their high IQ as a crutch to look down on women and minorities and make them feel better about themselves.

    • Black&German
    • Posted November 20, 2009 at 3:40 pm
    • Permalink

    You never see a women talking much about her beta lapdog (Besides casual mockery, of course).

    Lapdog… perhaps not. But some of us are actually quite enamored of our beta men.

    I decided ten years ago I didn’t want my kids growing up in the shit hole America was becoming so I got the hell out.

    Mack, that’s funny. I had the same thought and moved back to the States. There’s school choice here. :-) But you’re in Sweden, right? There’s school choice there, too. Unfortunately, I don’t speak Swedish.

    • Mack
    • Posted November 21, 2009 at 9:27 am
    • Permalink

    B+G,
    I am in Belgium and I completely agree with you on school choice with is one of the reasons I am here. There is complete school choice here — the type Americans can only dream of. The elite Catholic primary school that my three children go to is absolutely free. Any family in Belgium, if they wish, can sign up for this school and attend. Many don’t because it is a very demanding and difficult school – demanding especially for the parents. Of course there is a law here in Belgium that it is illegal to give kids under ten years of age any homework but I can tell you that the law is broken every school night at my house. But if a kid can’t make it there is absolutely no pity for them – they are given the choice to flunk or choose an easier school.

    Our school is also very low budget with no frills. I remember one Scottish guy who saw the nursery school section for the first time (he had picked the school on reputation only – and never regretted it later) and said that a Romanian orphanage would be ashamed to have a playground like the one at our school. But the kids are highly motivated, the parents heavily invested, and the teachers are great. It is a ton of work for us but totally worth it.

    At the secondary level the Socialists recently screwed up the system and it is a little more complicated (and the final solution is still being debated) so I won’t go into that. What I will say is that parents with four kids often have them in four different schools depending on what their children are interested in.

    At many universities there are no admission standards besides a high school education! But the first year 50% of the students are weeded out and the second year another 25% bite the dust. A student is allowed three chances before getting the boot from the higher education system.

    And you know all about the pre-school system here (same as Germany I imagine) so I won’t brag about that.

    In California, where I am originally from, the only school choice is if you have lots of money. Other than that my friends there are buying or renting in posh suburbs where there are good public school systems. Here in Belgium it is more egalitarian because a poor family can provide their children with an excellent education if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

    And another nice thing about being in Europe is my children are trilingual — French, English, and Swedish. Actually the oldest (nine years old) is already decent in Flemish so that will be four languages. That would just not happen in the States.

    • La Boca Bonita
    • Posted January 27, 2010 at 9:15 pm
    • Permalink

    Nice post even though I am late reading it…lol


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